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  • #61
    NSA Confirms Israel Liberty Attack Was Accident

    By Joel Leyden


    Jerusalem----January 11......Much propaganda has been thrown against Israel in the "information war" but no subject is highlighted more than a tragic friendly-fire incident which occurred between Israel and the US almost 40 years ago.

    US Florida Judge Jay Cristol was responsible for having successfully petitioned the NSA to release US data confirming the accident. Cristol believes that Israel's enemies have tried to use this incident for decades to create a wedge between Washington and Jerusalem.

    Judge Cristol, in an exclusive interview with the Israel News Agency explains what happened to the USS Liberty and discusses the relevance of the new information released by the US National Security Agency.

    Judge Cristol: "On the fourth day of the Six Day War, June 8, 1967, the USS Liberty, a U.S. Navy intelligence gatherer, failed to receive orders to stay clear of the combat zone and sailed into the middle of the Six Day War."

    Cristol continues: "On the previous day, Israeli forces in the Sinai, near El Arish, had reported being shelled from the sea by a ship. Explosions around El Arish led the army to think it was happening again. They saw a grey warship near the horizon and reported it to headquarters (the Karya). The Israeli Navy sent motor torpedo boats to investigate. Through a series of additional errors, they determined that they could not overtake the ship which was steering toward Port Said. They called for air and the Israeli Air Force was sent to locate and attack a hostile warship off El Arish."

    "Twelve or fourteen minutes into the air attack the flight leader of Royal Flight (2 Super Mystere) noticed the ship's hull markings were not in Arabic script. The Air Force stopped the attack. Soon thereafter the motor torpedo boats arrived. They stopped and began to signal the ship which was now smoking as a result of the air attack. The ship, the Liberty, began firing at the torpedo boats which convinced them she was hostile and commenced a torpedo attack. The ship was identified as hostile, Egyptian, Soviet, Egyptian again and ultimately American. The identification as American took place between 3:07 and 3:12 p.m. about 40 minutes after the attacks were over. The second Israeli helicopter pilot observed and confirmed an American flag," said Cristol.

    "For years conspiracy theorists have claimed that audio tapes existed of the Israeli pilots identifying the ship as American before they attacked. There are other conspiracy claims that the Liberty radio compartment made such interceptions and that the U.S. submarine Amberjack had gathered damning evidence during the attack by means of its periscope."

    "On July 2, 2003, as a result of my lawsuit using the Freedom of Information Act, the National Security Agency made two significant admissions. First, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the USS Liberty. Second, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the US submarine Amberjack. And finally, the National Security Agency released copies of the recordings it made from an EC-121 aircraft in the vicinity of the attacks during the time periods 2:30 p.m. Sinai time to 3:27 p.m. Sinai time. These tapes contain nothing to support the prior conspiracy claims and show that the helicopters were first dispatched to rescue Egyptians, and then demonstrate the confusion as to the identification of the target ship."

    Cristol adds: "The tapes confirm that the helicopter pilot observed the flag at 3:12 p.m. This perfectly dove-tails with the audio tapes which the Israel Air Force released to Judge Cristol of the radio transmissions before, during and after the attack. The English translations of those tapes are published in Appendix 2, of Judge Cristol's book "The Liberty Incident". The NSA tapes are the last significant piece of evidence which remained classified until now. They clearly corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes and support the decisions of ten official U.S. investigations and 3 or more official Israeli investigations, all of which concluded that the tragic event was a case of mistaken identity."

    "As Admiral "Bud" Edney, former NATO supreme allied commander, Atlantic; and commander in chief, U.S. Atlantic command, stated, "Only those with an ulterior motive can still cling to the conspiracy theories after Judge Jay Cristol's excellent coverage documents each detail that led to the tragic mistaken attack."

    Israel News Agency: Judge, what motivated you to get involved in this research project?

    AJC: When I was appointed a federal judge I began taking courses in international affairs at the Graduate School of International Affairs at the University of Miami. My initial interest was in terrorism. One day Dr. Haim Shaked suggested that with my background as a naval aviator, navy lawyer, lecturer for the Department of Defense on law of naval warfare, civilian lawyer and federal judge, I was qualified to research and write on the Liberty incident. At first I resisted, arguing "that was more than 20 years ago". But I was soon shown how active the conspiracy theorists and hate mongers were about keeping the story alive. I started a one year project as a masters degree which developed into 10 years and a Ph.D. My doctoral dissertation is on file in the Library of Congress. I then spent 3 more years writing my book "The Liberty Incident". I now have 16 years on the project and the largest collection in the world of research materials on this subject. The Hoover Institution at Stanford University has requested my research material for their archives. I have gifted it to them and am in the process of sending it to them.

    Israel News Agency: Why has this matter remained alive for 36 years?

    AJC: The victims of the tragedy are typical of victims of friendly fire. They find it difficult to believe that they were wounded or their buddies were killed by mistake. In this case the victims have been imposed upon, used and abused by groups with their own agendas. First, are those who are on the Arab side of the Arab/Israeli conflict and who try to use the tragedy to drive a wedge into the otherwise excellent relationship between the United States and Israel. Next are those persons who are anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. And finally there are the conspiracy buffs. For the reasons indicated these three groups have continued to probe the wounds of the victims for their own purposes and are not concerned with healing or closure.

    Israel News Agency: How important is the release of the audio tapes by the National Security Agency?

    AJC: The release of the NSA tapes is extremely important because it provides additional evidence that has been solely in the hands of the United States and therefore cannot be challenged as having been modified or altered by Israeli intelligence services. In addition, it corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes as the material dove-tails with the information on those tapes.

    Israel News Agency: Why do many of the conspiracy theorists continue to demand a United States Congressional investigation and is such an investigation appropriate?

    AJC: The goal is simply to provide a platform for propaganda. There have been ten official U.S. investigations. Five of them were Congressional. They all reached the same conclusion that the incident was a tragic mistake. Eight United States Presidents: Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43) have supported and adopted these conclusions. In fact, the current President of the United States, George W. Bush, through White House staff, issued a letter in October 2002 indicating his position that no further investigation of this incident was needed.

    Israel News Agency: Would you comment on the claims of author James Bamford that the Liberty was attacked to prevent the United States from learning of massacres of Egyptian prisoners in the Sinai?

    AJC: Mr. Bamford provides as his source of this claim two Israeli journalists, both of whom have denied statements attributed to them by Bamford. First, it is literally impossible for an electronic intelligence gatherer to overhear murders taking place in a desert more than a dozen miles away. The Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1973. Egypt has made no claim that such murders took place. No mass graves have been located and no Egyptian soldiers from the '67 war are missing or unaccounted for. Mr. Bamford writings are much closer to fiction than to history.

    Israel News Agency: Are all the former crew-members of the USS Liberty unanimous in their belief in conspiracy theories?

    AJC: Absolutely not. The spectrum of opinions is quite varied from those who are rabid conspiracy theory supporters to others who accept the fact that the tragedy was the result of both Israeli and U.S. mistakes. I have been asked for the names of crew-members who accept the mistake theory but have declined to name anyone as I have no intention of creating animosity among shipmates.

    Israel News Agency: The Liberty Veteran's Association appears to be very active in support of conspiracy theories. How is the association organized and are all former Liberty crew-members members of the Association?

    AJC: There are many crew-members that have never joined the Association. The Association was founded with the assistance of two former United States Congressman, Paul Findley of Illinois, the first U.S. Congressman to espouse the PLO, and Paul N. "Pete" McCloskey, who is well known for his anti-Israel sentiments. McCloskey drafted the incorporation papers for the Association and also served as legal advisor to the Association. He has spoken at Holocaust denial organization conferences. He and Findley, together with three other former congresspersons, established the Council for the National Interest, CNI, an organization whose avowed purposes (according to their own press release) was to be an anti-Israel lobby.



    ©All Rights Reserved 2004 Israel News Agency


    ISRAEL NEWS AGENCY

    Comment


    • #62
      i guess no one could see this flag? thats an actual picture from the rescue ops...dont try to tell me the crew put the flag up after for a photo op
      Attached Files

      Comment


      • #63
        Would you say the same thing about the U.S. fighting Al Qaeda?
        I'd say that this thread is a perfect example of the point I was trying to make. It started off as an interesting discussion, and now it's a flame war - largely due to you're coming about as close to calling for a pogrom against the arabs as a person can come without actually saying it...

        Crush the Arab revolt by any means necessary. Forcibly remove all Arabs who aren't willing to accept the exclusive sovereignty of the Jewish people over their land of Israel.



        Is it impossible for everyone reading this to see that the arabs at the other end of the stick are having this exact conversation and coming to the same conclusion?
        Last edited by gregimotis; 12-01-2005, 08:11 PM. Reason: formatting

        Comment


        • #64
          USS Liberty pix WAR CRIMES REPORT FILED BY USS LIBERTY SURVIVORS USS Liberty pix
          USS Liberty pix HTML Version of War Crimes Report USS Liberty pix

          The USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed a formal
          Report of War Crimes Committed Against U.S. Military Personnel,
          June 8, 1967, by elements of the Israeli military forces.

          The Report has been filed with the Department of Defense.

          To read the Report as a PDF document, click here
          To read the Report as an HTML document, click here.

          The United States is obligated by law and by international treaty
          to investigate all reports of war crimes by or against United States Forces.
          This report obligates such an investigation. It was filed more than four months ago.
          We are still waiting patiently for a reply.

          Comment


          • #65
            "Twelve or fourteen minutes into the air attack the flight leader of Royal Flight (2 Super Mystere) noticed the ship's hull markings were not in Arabic script. The Air Force stopped the attack. Soon thereafter the motor torpedo boats arrived. They stopped and began to signal the ship which was now smoking as a result of the air attack. The ship, the Liberty, began firing at the torpedo boats which convinced them she was hostile and commenced a torpedo attack. The ship was identified as hostile, Egyptian, Soviet, Egyptian again and ultimately American. The identification as American took place between 3:07 and 3:12 p.m. about 40 minutes after the attacks were over. The second Israeli helicopter pilot observed and confirmed an American flag," said Cristol."

            Cristol adds: "The tapes confirm that the helicopter pilot observed the flag at 3:12 p.m. This perfectly dove-tails with the audio tapes which the Israel Air Force released to Judge Cristol of the radio transmissions before, during and after the attack. The English translations of those tapes are published in Appendix 2, of Judge Cristol's book "The Liberty Incident". The NSA tapes are the last significant piece of evidence which remained classified until now. They clearly corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes and support the decisions of ten official U.S. investigations and 3 or more official Israeli investigations, all of which concluded that the tragic event was a case of mistaken identity."

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by treelizard
              NSA Confirms Israel Liberty Attack Was Accident

              By Joel Leyden


              Jerusalem----January 11......Much propaganda has been thrown against Israel in the "information war" but no subject is highlighted more than a tragic friendly-fire incident which occurred between Israel and the US almost 40 years ago.

              US Florida Judge Jay Cristol was responsible for having successfully petitioned the NSA to release US data confirming the accident. Cristol believes that Israel's enemies have tried to use this incident for decades to create a wedge between Washington and Jerusalem.

              Judge Cristol, in an exclusive interview with the Israel News Agency explains what happened to the USS Liberty and discusses the relevance of the new information released by the US National Security Agency.

              Judge Cristol: "On the fourth day of the Six Day War, June 8, 1967, the USS Liberty, a U.S. Navy intelligence gatherer, failed to receive orders to stay clear of the combat zone and sailed into the middle of the Six Day War."

              Cristol continues: "On the previous day, Israeli forces in the Sinai, near El Arish, had reported being shelled from the sea by a ship. Explosions around El Arish led the army to think it was happening again. They saw a grey warship near the horizon and reported it to headquarters (the Karya). The Israeli Navy sent motor torpedo boats to investigate. Through a series of additional errors, they determined that they could not overtake the ship which was steering toward Port Said. They called for air and the Israeli Air Force was sent to locate and attack a hostile warship off El Arish."

              "Twelve or fourteen minutes into the air attack the flight leader of Royal Flight (2 Super Mystere) noticed the ship's hull markings were not in Arabic script. The Air Force stopped the attack. Soon thereafter the motor torpedo boats arrived. They stopped and began to signal the ship which was now smoking as a result of the air attack. The ship, the Liberty, began firing at the torpedo boats which convinced them she was hostile and commenced a torpedo attack. The ship was identified as hostile, Egyptian, Soviet, Egyptian again and ultimately American. The identification as American took place between 3:07 and 3:12 p.m. about 40 minutes after the attacks were over. The second Israeli helicopter pilot observed and confirmed an American flag," said Cristol.

              "For years conspiracy theorists have claimed that audio tapes existed of the Israeli pilots identifying the ship as American before they attacked. There are other conspiracy claims that the Liberty radio compartment made such interceptions and that the U.S. submarine Amberjack had gathered damning evidence during the attack by means of its periscope."

              "On July 2, 2003, as a result of my lawsuit using the Freedom of Information Act, the National Security Agency made two significant admissions. First, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the USS Liberty. Second, that there had been no radio intercepts made by the US submarine Amberjack. And finally, the National Security Agency released copies of the recordings it made from an EC-121 aircraft in the vicinity of the attacks during the time periods 2:30 p.m. Sinai time to 3:27 p.m. Sinai time. These tapes contain nothing to support the prior conspiracy claims and show that the helicopters were first dispatched to rescue Egyptians, and then demonstrate the confusion as to the identification of the target ship."

              Cristol adds: "The tapes confirm that the helicopter pilot observed the flag at 3:12 p.m. This perfectly dove-tails with the audio tapes which the Israel Air Force released to Judge Cristol of the radio transmissions before, during and after the attack. The English translations of those tapes are published in Appendix 2, of Judge Cristol's book "The Liberty Incident". The NSA tapes are the last significant piece of evidence which remained classified until now. They clearly corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes and support the decisions of ten official U.S. investigations and 3 or more official Israeli investigations, all of which concluded that the tragic event was a case of mistaken identity."

              "As Admiral "Bud" Edney, former NATO supreme allied commander, Atlantic; and commander in chief, U.S. Atlantic command, stated, "Only those with an ulterior motive can still cling to the conspiracy theories after Judge Jay Cristol's excellent coverage documents each detail that led to the tragic mistaken attack."

              Israel News Agency: Judge, what motivated you to get involved in this research project?

              AJC: When I was appointed a federal judge I began taking courses in international affairs at the Graduate School of International Affairs at the University of Miami. My initial interest was in terrorism. One day Dr. Haim Shaked suggested that with my background as a naval aviator, navy lawyer, lecturer for the Department of Defense on law of naval warfare, civilian lawyer and federal judge, I was qualified to research and write on the Liberty incident. At first I resisted, arguing "that was more than 20 years ago". But I was soon shown how active the conspiracy theorists and hate mongers were about keeping the story alive. I started a one year project as a masters degree which developed into 10 years and a Ph.D. My doctoral dissertation is on file in the Library of Congress. I then spent 3 more years writing my book "The Liberty Incident". I now have 16 years on the project and the largest collection in the world of research materials on this subject. The Hoover Institution at Stanford University has requested my research material for their archives. I have gifted it to them and am in the process of sending it to them.

              Israel News Agency: Why has this matter remained alive for 36 years?

              AJC: The victims of the tragedy are typical of victims of friendly fire. They find it difficult to believe that they were wounded or their buddies were killed by mistake. In this case the victims have been imposed upon, used and abused by groups with their own agendas. First, are those who are on the Arab side of the Arab/Israeli conflict and who try to use the tragedy to drive a wedge into the otherwise excellent relationship between the United States and Israel. Next are those persons who are anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. And finally there are the conspiracy buffs. For the reasons indicated these three groups have continued to probe the wounds of the victims for their own purposes and are not concerned with healing or closure.

              Israel News Agency: How important is the release of the audio tapes by the National Security Agency?

              AJC: The release of the NSA tapes is extremely important because it provides additional evidence that has been solely in the hands of the United States and therefore cannot be challenged as having been modified or altered by Israeli intelligence services. In addition, it corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes as the material dove-tails with the information on those tapes.

              Israel News Agency: Why do many of the conspiracy theorists continue to demand a United States Congressional investigation and is such an investigation appropriate?

              AJC: The goal is simply to provide a platform for propaganda. There have been ten official U.S. investigations. Five of them were Congressional. They all reached the same conclusion that the incident was a tragic mistake. Eight United States Presidents: Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43) have supported and adopted these conclusions. In fact, the current President of the United States, George W. Bush, through White House staff, issued a letter in October 2002 indicating his position that no further investigation of this incident was needed.

              Israel News Agency: Would you comment on the claims of author James Bamford that the Liberty was attacked to prevent the United States from learning of massacres of Egyptian prisoners in the Sinai?

              AJC: Mr. Bamford provides as his source of this claim two Israeli journalists, both of whom have denied statements attributed to them by Bamford. First, it is literally impossible for an electronic intelligence gatherer to overhear murders taking place in a desert more than a dozen miles away. The Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1973. Egypt has made no claim that such murders took place. No mass graves have been located and no Egyptian soldiers from the '67 war are missing or unaccounted for. Mr. Bamford writings are much closer to fiction than to history.

              Israel News Agency: Are all the former crew-members of the USS Liberty unanimous in their belief in conspiracy theories?

              AJC: Absolutely not. The spectrum of opinions is quite varied from those who are rabid conspiracy theory supporters to others who accept the fact that the tragedy was the result of both Israeli and U.S. mistakes. I have been asked for the names of crew-members who accept the mistake theory but have declined to name anyone as I have no intention of creating animosity among shipmates.

              Israel News Agency: The Liberty Veteran's Association appears to be very active in support of conspiracy theories. How is the association organized and are all former Liberty crew-members members of the Association?

              AJC: There are many crew-members that have never joined the Association. The Association was founded with the assistance of two former United States Congressman, Paul Findley of Illinois, the first U.S. Congressman to espouse the PLO, and Paul N. "Pete" McCloskey, who is well known for his anti-Israel sentiments. McCloskey drafted the incorporation papers for the Association and also served as legal advisor to the Association. He has spoken at Holocaust denial organization conferences. He and Findley, together with three other former congresspersons, established the Council for the National Interest, CNI, an organization whose avowed purposes (according to their own press release) was to be an anti-Israel lobby.



              ©All Rights Reserved 2004 Israel News Agency


              ISRAEL NEWS AGENCY
              interesting source...note in your own post YOUR Airforce identified it as an american ship and broke off the Attack...

              Besides so what its a coverup...of course you have people with things to gain who dispute what those involved say.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by treelizard
                "Twelve or fourteen minutes into the air attack the flight leader of Royal Flight (2 Super Mystere) noticed the ship's hull markings were not in Arabic script. The Air Force stopped the attack. Soon thereafter the motor torpedo boats arrived. They stopped and began to signal the ship which was now smoking as a result of the air attack. The ship, the Liberty, began firing at the torpedo boats which convinced them she was hostile and commenced a torpedo attack. The ship was identified as hostile, Egyptian, Soviet, Egyptian again and ultimately American. The identification as American took place between 3:07 and 3:12 p.m. about 40 minutes after the attacks were over. The second Israeli helicopter pilot observed and confirmed an American flag," said Cristol."

                Cristol adds: "The tapes confirm that the helicopter pilot observed the flag at 3:12 p.m. This perfectly dove-tails with the audio tapes which the Israel Air Force released to Judge Cristol of the radio transmissions before, during and after the attack. The English translations of those tapes are published in Appendix 2, of Judge Cristol's book "The Liberty Incident". The NSA tapes are the last significant piece of evidence which remained classified until now. They clearly corroborates the Israeli Air Force tapes and support the decisions of ten official U.S. investigations and 3 or more official Israeli investigations, all of which concluded that the tragic event was a case of mistaken identity."
                oh so after 12-14 minutes of Aircraft attacks when your GUNBOATS arrived we shot back... Who wouldnt have at that point?

                ANY sailor knows the story is bullshit...we can tell each others ships apart..different colors, different placement of markings....different language...( i mean really your military doesnt know the difference in English and Egyptian script?)

                perhaps the voices Screaming for help on the radios in ENGLISH? might have tipped someone off?...

                It is another BS story that those who never served will buy into...those that served have already accepted everything you hear aint the truth.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Wow, you guys kill me. So it's "interesting" to discuss relocating all Israelis to New Orleans, but it's a "pogrom" for Jews to defend their land. It's not like there aren't Arab countries who could absorb all the Palestinians hundreds of times over (though they refused to do this and let Palestinian refugees of Egypt rot in camps even to this day) the same way that Israel absorbed 1,000,000 Jewish refugees immediately when 22 Arab countries expelled them from their borders in '48. (And I will add that the only their so called enemy Israel lets them--and suicide bombers--into their country to work.)

                  Gregimotis--what's your solution?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by treelizard
                    Wow, you guys kill me. So it's "interesting" to discuss relocating all Israelis to New Orleans, but it's a "pogrom" for Jews to defend their land. It's not like there aren't Arab countries who could absorb all the Palestinians hundreds of times over (though they refused to do this and let Palestinian refugees of Egypt rot in camps even to this day) the same way that Israel absorbed 1,000,000 Jewish refugees immediately when 22 Arab countries expelled them from their borders in '48. (And I will add that the only their so called enemy Israel lets them--and suicide bombers--into their country to work.)

                    Gregimotis--what's your solution?
                    hey lizard, I was making an example when i used the US...point was i didnt suggest sticking The israeli people somewhere nuclear war IS going to be the result.

                    just because youre right (assuming you are) doesnt mean you have the right to draw the whole world into your holy war.

                    Yes it sucks when the bad guys make life rough...i dont see us getting nuked to save Tibet...or Taiwan...what makes Israel so special?...if you wanna die to live there...then leave the United States and go defend Israel from there instead of from the USA on the net. I have bled for Israel...have you? yet here you are bitching at me...youre welcome

                    Anyway...It wasnt meant as disrespect when i said move the Israeli people.
                    i was trying to point out that dead for a cause (right or wrong) is still dead.

                    Sometimes common sense has to apply....my dad told me there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity...staying to fight over principle is stupid.

                    I agree the Jews have had it rough. No where on the planet would be more dangerous than where they currently reside. Since we have to protect the Israeli people, it would be a HELL of alot easier to do from here.

                    sorry if it hurt your feelings...i will shut up and take my nuking like a good little boy...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Boar,
                      You're right--I should be in Israel serving my country. My father and grandfather both served. My survival as a Jew is assured because of them and other Israeli soldiers, and words can't express my gratitude to them.

                      The Jews have been living in Israel since they were slaughtered and exiled by the Romans 2,000 years ago, they weren't "put" there. And like I wrote, the relationship between the U.S. and Israel is definitely not one-sided. And I think I also amply explained that Arabs hated the US before the US supported Israel.

                      Thank you for your service.
                      Yael

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Perhaps "put" was the wrong word The Jews were "Given" the land by treaty....


                        "The legal title of the Jewish People to the mandated territory of Palestine in all of its historic parts and dimensions was first recognized under international law on April 25, 1920 by a Decision taken at the San Remo Peace Conference by the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied Powers to entrust Palestine to Great Britain under the Mandates System for the purpose of establishing a national home for the exclusive benefit of the Jewish People, in accordance with the terms of the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917.

                        The Supreme Council of the Allies was made up of the top political leaders and officials of Great Britain, France, Italy and Japan, and it was they in their meeting in the Italian resort city who decided the future fate of all the Asiatic possessions which, as a consequence of World War I, had ceased to be under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Turkish Empire which formerly governed them."



                        This is what i was referring to...People didnt know about terrorism and nukes back then. no one forsaw the fact it would culminate in WW3...well we can see it now...perhaps we need to rethink the idea.

                        Say oops we fucked up....at least TRY to avert WW3. NOTHING ELSE is going to avert the final result. Hell that might not work either, and while it isnt ideal, it beats the hell out of the alternative.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          From what I've heard from some good sources, the Jewish Underground beat the British and they withdrew, and they weren't "given" the land. In fact I just ordered a book called "The Secret War Against the Jews" by John Loftus which I've heard proves the U.N. did not give the land up willingly.

                          But even if you were right and it HAD been "given"--I thought you were against American Indian Policy? What gives the U.S. the RIGHT to tell an entire country where to go, when people fought and bled and DIED for that land? Like I pointed out, Israel and the U.S. do not have a one-sided relationship, and Israel is not telling the U.S. where to go or what to do... And Israel took the UNPROVOKED scud missiles from Iraq when they weren't even in the Coalition...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by treelizard
                            Boar,
                            You're right--I should be in Israel serving my country. My father and grandfather both served. My survival as a Jew is assured because of them and other Israeli soldiers, and words can't express my gratitude to them.

                            The Jews have been living in Israel since they were slaughtered and exiled by the Romans 2,000 years ago, they weren't "put" there. And like I wrote, the relationship between the U.S. and Israel is definitely not one-sided. And I think I also amply explained that Arabs hated the US before the US supported Israel.

                            Thank you for your service.
                            Yael

                            you werent put there, but you were "given" the land by a treaty.

                            Balfour Declaration 1917

                            November 2nd, 1917

                            Dear Lord Rothschild,

                            I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

                            "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

                            I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

                            Yours sincerely,

                            Arthur James Balfour

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Gregimotis--what's your solution?
                              I'm sure I don't have one. It's a miserable situation all-round, I guess we can all agree on that.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by BoarSpear
                                you werent put there, but you were "given" the land by a treaty.
                                Which I've heard argued was created as a way for the British to save face after the Jewish Underground kicked their ass. I'm gonna research this some more and will get back to you.

                                Comment

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