Yes or No

[jubaji]

MAYBE i'll take you off ignore...till then you aint worth another word....

I accept your surrender.

[aseepish]

Food For Thought

Aseepish,
A question for someone who's given it some thought -

If the insurgency is a nationalistic movement, why would it align itself so closely with al-Qaeda? The Sunni jihadists that are primarily involved with the insurgency have allied with the Wahabist ideology of Osama bin Laden, which really goes against any goals of nationalism, don't you think? I mean, even if Iraqi insurgents are after a nationalistic end game, why do you suppose they'd be willing to try and achieve it through alliances that literally cannot (by the definition of "nationalist") be maintained in the event of success? Bin Laden is after a Muslim world. His ideology is really more racist and secular than nationalist, don't you think? I just wonder what he'd think of Iraq if the insurgents won and then declared an independent and nationalist Iraq. It seems, on the surface at least, that a move like that would put them at odds with bin Laden's aims as well.

It's scary to look closer at the ideology of all the players involved. After all, the group most opposed (ideologically speaking, I mean) to al-Qaeda's Islam is the Shi'a, closely followed by the - ulp - Ba'athists (non-jihadist Sunnis). In the end, I really think it's about power and control more than religion. When it comes to fights in the Middle East (especially in Iraq), people will align with their absolute opposites on a whim. Remember when the Kurds were battling one another in the North? The same Kurds that Saddam gassed nearly invited him and his army into the fray just to put down Jalal Talabani. This was not long after Saddam had killed thousands with chemical weapons, and here they were, brokering deals for power over a virtual country that didn't really exist.

Food for thought, eh?

Definitely food for thought!

I found this article in the Washington Post:

"...The relative importance of the foreign component of Iraq's two-year-old insurgency, estimated at between 4 and 10 percent of all guerrillas, has been a matter of growing debate in military and intelligence circles, U.S. and Iraqi officials and American commanders said. Top U.S. military officials here have long emphasized the influence of groups such as al Qaeda in Iraq, an insurgent network led by a Jordanian, Abu Musab Zarqawi. But analysts say the focus on foreign elements is also an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the insurgency in the eyes of Iraqis, by portraying it as terrorism foisted on the country by outsiders."

Full article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...111602519.html

I really hope that analysis is accurate, because it implies that the other 96 to 90 percent of the guerrillas are not under direct influence of al Qaeda. The best case scenario is of course that the insurgency be ended prior to a US withdrawal. The medium worst case scenario is civil war fought amongst the various insurgent factions after a premature US withdrawal. The worst worst case scenario is a civil war that brings in Iran, Turkey, and/or the Saudis.

The difficult task ahead is to create an Iraqi governement that is seen as legitimate in the eyes of the various factions - Shi'as, Sunnis, and Kurds.


The CSIS paper quoted in the article is here: http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/050927_civilwar.pdf

[BoarSpear]

HOLY SHIT!! Thats one hell of an article

Its HUGE ...it was all i could do not to copy and paste the whole thing...

okay damnitt, i lost, this things gonna dissapear after awhile
..............................................................................
Among Insurgents in Iraq, Few Foreigners Are Found

By Jonathan Finer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, November 17, 2005; Page A01

BAGHDAD -- Before 8,500 U.S. and Iraqi soldiers methodically swept through Tall Afar two months ago in the year's largest counterinsurgency offensive, commanders described the northern city as a logistics hub for fighters, including foreigners entering the country from Syria, 65 miles to the west.

"They come across the border and use Tall Afar as a base to launch attacks across northern Iraq," Col. H.R. McMaster, commander of the Army's 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, which led the assault, said in a briefing the day before it began.


About 1,000 suspected insurgents, apparently all Iraqis, were detained in September in the northern city of Tall Afar after house-to-house searches involving 8,500 U.S. and Iraqi troops.

When the air and ground operation wound down in mid-September, nearly 200 insurgents had been killed and close to 1,000 detained, the military said at the time. But interrogations and other analyses carried out in recent weeks showed that none of those captured was from outside Iraq. According to McMaster's staff, the 3rd Armored Cavalry last detained a foreign fighter in June.

In a recent interview, McMaster maintained that, before insurgents were driven from Tall Afar in September, foreigners were at least partly responsible for the "climate of fear" that pervaded the city -- a result of beheadings, suicide attacks and the abduction of young men to conscript them as fighters.

"They trained indigenous terror cells and moved on somewhere else," he said.

The relative importance of the foreign component of Iraq's two-year-old insurgency, estimated at between 4 and 10 percent of all guerrillas, has been a matter of growing debate in military and intelligence circles, U.S. and Iraqi officials and American commanders said. Top U.S. military officials here have long emphasized the influence of groups such as al Qaeda in Iraq, an insurgent network led by a Jordanian, Abu Musab Zarqawi. But analysts say the focus on foreign elements is also an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the insurgency in the eyes of Iraqis, by portraying it as terrorism foisted on the country by outsiders.

"Both Iraqis and coalition people often exaggerate the role of foreign infiltrators and downplay the role of Iraqi resentment in the insurgency," said Anthony H. Cordesman, a former Pentagon official now at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, who is writing a book about the Iraqi insurgency.

"It makes the government's counterinsurgency efforts seem more legitimate, and it links what's going on in Iraq to the war on terrorism," he continued. "When people go out into battle, they often characterize enemies in the most negative way possible. Obviously there are all kinds of interacting political prejudices they can bring out by blaming outsiders."

In weekly briefings for reporters in Baghdad, Maj. Gen Rick Lynch regularly displays slides showing the face of Zarqawi, whose organization has asserted responsibility for many high-profile attacks. Mug shots of the Jordanian adorn virtually every barracks and checkpoint in Baghdad's fortified Green Zone.

"We do believe that the major players are in Zarqawi's network, and that's why we're focusing our operations against him," Lynch said in a recent interview. "We believe that the most lethal piece of the insurgency here is the terrorist and foreign fighters. And it's because of the level of violence they're willing to go to to accomplish their objective, which is to derail the democratic process and discredit the Iraqi government."

U.S. and Iraqi officials have long maintained that a key to stabilizing the country is preventing an alliance between foreign fighters and Iraqis who might be amenable to pursuing politics instead of violence to accomplish their goals. But as the country's nascent political process has moved forward -- a transitional government has been elected and a constitutional referendum held so far this year, and parliamentary elections are scheduled for next month -- there is little evidence that the native insurgency has diminished.

In much of the country, including the north and center, commanders say, the insurgency is led and populated almost entirely by Iraqis, many of them former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party, who do not work closely with Zarqawi's group. Commanders there say Iraqi insurgents are largely responsible for the roadside bombings, some involving armor-penetrating weapons, that have been responsible for roughly half of the U.S. combat deaths in recent months.

"The foreign fighters' attacks tend to be more spectacular, but local nationals, the Saddamists, the Iraqi rejectionists, are much more problematic," said Maj. Gen. Joseph J. Taluto, commander of the Army's 42nd Infantry Division. His unit, which lost 59 soldiers during its tour here, was based in the northern city of Tikrit, Hussein's home town, before transferring the region to the 101st Airborne Division this month.

Al Qaeda in Iraq maintains a presence in the region, he said, "but they're not having much of an impact. Their message is not resonating."

In Washington, a senior State Department official called foreign fighters "an important element to the insurgency," but added that "it would be a mistake to imagine that this isn't a largely Iraqi-based operation with critical support from foreign elements."

A Western diplomat in Baghdad, who spoke on the condition that he not be named, said that foreign fighters remained the coalition's "greatest concern" and that publicizing their role helps the Iraqi government pressure nations whose citizens are traveling to Iraq to fight. "It may be overstated by some, but that does not mean they don't exist," he said. "It is critical to get the help from countries where these people come from, to stop the flow."

Cordesman said the relative influence of foreign and Iraqi elements of the insurgency is difficult to measure because accurate numbers are hard to come by. In a report published in September, he and a co-author said they believed that 4 to 10 percent of the roughly 30,000 insurgents in Iraq are foreigners, many of them adherents of a radical branch of Islam known as Salafism.

They said that interviews with intelligence officials and earlier studies suggested that the largest contingents are Algerians (20 percent), Syrians (18 percent), Yemenis (17 percent), Sudanese (15 percent) and Egyptians (13 percent). They can be hard to distinguish from the general population, the report said, because cell leaders have encouraged them to shave their beards, which symbolize piety, and to carry cigarettes, even though most Salafis do not smoke.

Last month, Lynch said at a news conference that 376 foreigners had been detained in Iraq this year, including 78 Egyptians, 66 Syrians, 41 Sudanese and 32 Saudis. One American and one Briton also were captured, Lynch said.

In Tall Afar, the United States launched a major offensive more than a year ago, but insurgents regained control of much of the city after the Americans reduced troop strength in the region to one battalion.

This September's offensive restored order and has allowed thousands of residents who had fled to return. The vast majority are Sunni Muslim Turkmens, many of whom served in the army under Hussein. Attacks have continued, including a suicide bombing carried out by a mentally disabled Iraqi girl, though less frequently than before, the military reported.

"The enemy in Tall Afar consists mostly of local fighters, with a small but dangerous network of Takfirist foreign leaders, financiers and propagandists," said Lt. Col. Paul Yingling of the 3rd Armored Cavalry, referring to adherents of another radical branch of Islam. Once the regiment arrived "and began to operate with the Iraqi army in the city, the foreign component of the insurgency became much more cautious," he said.

...............................................................

i gotta agree if its all true its good news...its not foriegn terrorists were fighting its still saddams holdouts etc...that we should be able to quell that without having to go to war anywhere else.

i think we will see a civil war for sure...no way theyre all gonna get along now, they havent in the past...so i dont forsee it in the future.

10 bucks says brewer wont even give this post a reply....He NEVER does when he cant Bullshit his way out...

[BoarSpear]

Wow, i find this interesting. The scientist that we dubbed "DR Germ" and Mrs Anthrax are being released....HMMMM
............................................................................................

US sets Saddam's scientists free

Huda Ammash was educated in the US
Eight former aides to Saddam Hussein - including two women accused of making biological weapons - have been released from US custody in Iraq.

The freed detainees no longer pose a security threat, a US spokesman said.

They include Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, nicknamed by the US "Mrs Anthrax" and Rihab Taha, also known as "Dr Germ".

Reports have been circulating of a pre-election deal to free former regime figures in order to appease Iraq's Sunni Arabs, correspondents say.


Many were originally held as suspects in possible war crimes and as material witnesses
US military spokesman

Iraq's women scientists
Iraq's most wanted

A US military spokesman in Baghdad said eight detainees "were released as part of an ongoing process for many months in full consultation with the Iraqi government".

"Many were originally held as suspects in possible war crimes and as material witnesses," the spokesman said.

They were released over the weekend after nearly three years in detention.

They have been flown to Jordan, reportedly because of fears for their safety in Iraq, where many former regime figures have been assassinated.

Weapons programme

The British-educated Dr Taha and US-educated Mrs Ammash had both been accused by the Bush administration of involvement in Saddam Hussein's banned weapons programme.

Neutralising the threat posed by the former leader's chemical and biological weapons was cited by the US as its prime motive for invading Iraq in 2003.

No such weapons have been found since the invasion.

While the US military maintains only eight figures from Saddam Hussein's government have been released, an Iraqi official quoted by the Associated Press news agency said some 24 prisoners had been set free.

Aseel Tabra, an Iraqi Olympic Committee official and Hossam Mohammed Amin, head of the weapons inspections directorate, are among those released, according to the official quoted by the agency.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4542084.stm

[Garland]

It's not suprising at all we set Saddam's scientists free.
We gave the Japanese scientists that were doing wayyyy naughty bad things in China amnesty after WW2.
And...hey...forgive me if I'm wrong but...what's the deal with Bayer? Asprin...hmmmm big fuckin' price to pay if you ask me.

[BoarSpear]

It's not suprising at all we set Saddam's scientists free.
We gave the Japanese scientists that were doing wayyyy naughty bad things in China amnesty after WW2.
And...hey...forgive me if I'm wrong but...what's the deal with Bayer? Asprin...hmmmm big fuckin' price to pay if you ask me.

we also absorbed many top Nazi intelligence people into what became the CIA

[Garland]

well, won't be the CIA for long...it's soon to be the department of the uberstadt insecurity stassi...or something along those lines.???
Oh well...why the **** not. Bush might as well do the same thing he did with FEMA to the Intelligence (ha!, can you say oxy...mmmmmmorrrrrrrrrroooonnnn) Agencies. Sell them out to private contractors....like the Guiness commercial says "BRILLIANT!"


God fucking help America.
oh, wait...no God...right...what's that???

Seems like God's got me on hold, he's busy telling Bush who to carpet bomb.

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002095.html

[cam427]

I hate this crap... GRRRR....

I agree with Mike on this one (even though I dont like Bush). I hate the blame game used (most often by prisoners or no-hopers) to explain why everything is someone elses fault.

"It isn't my fault, I don't own the liquor store I just spend my whole day getting drunk so that is your fault"

"I am so bad. You should have seen me ambush that cop and pop a cap in his ass .... Why do the cops harrass me. When they are in my neiborhood they shoot first and ask questions later. They dont do that in Beverly hills. poor me.."

There are far too many people who have come from difficult situations, minorities or bad areas who have been sucessful to blame it on "society". Colin Powell is Black, so is Condeliza Rice. Arguably some of the most powerful people on earth. Australias richest man ran away from home at 12 and could not read or write until he was an adult. He is now a billionaire.

Cut the excuses, take some responsibility, work your ass off instead of sitting on the porch (or in your trailer) drinking beer and selling Crack (or starting gangs) and you could be a future secretary of state instead of being on death row.

I hate Bush, but he is not responsible for everything (although I think he may have sabotaged the mars lander as part of a global conspiracy to keep the martians under wraps )

[BoarSpear]

That song is the kind of liberal B.S. that divides our Congress and Senate right now. Blaming Bush because liquor stores open up in ghettos? Come on! And to defend Tookie Williams or assault Bush for allowing him to be put to death (as sentenced in the freaking 70's!!) is equally ridiculous. That bastard should have died ages ago. How many people has he killed? I'm not just talking about the four people he mercilessly slaughtered by his own hand, either. The guy founded the Crips - arguably the country's most violent gang. How many people have Crips killed in the last twenty years? He deserved a whole lot worse than he got, and he deserved it a hell of a lot sooner.



What war have you been watching?

And how can you fault the CIA for absorbing people from the opposition? That's their job!! They are supposed to go out and actively recruit people from the other side to come in and work for them! What, pray tell, did you think spying was?

You guys crack me up with the whole "Blame Bush for everything that happens in the entire world" attitude. The only thing that makes me feel secure about any of it is that I know you'll never actually DO anything except complain.

The litle sign on the pricks desk says president....that means the buck or responsibility stops there..the things that were wrong before his family got into the white house arent his fault....the spying on Americans, the patriot act, war under false pretenses and neglecting the american people to pursue his fantasy those ARE his fault.

So when we went to war with the Nazis, then we formed our own CIA with the remnanants of the Gestapo....doesnt that mean our intelligence agency sees through Nazi "shaded" glasses? If we go to war with the worst people on the planet and then absorb all their nastiest scum what does that make us?

So we have adopted Gestapo people, Japanese unit 731, and Soviet KGB personel into the ranks our intelligence service i guess that explains all the secret prisons and torture allegations we keep hearing about...and we all know what great secret police the Gestapo and KGB were...boy i feel so much safer with those guys running our intelligence agencies

i guess the iraqi scientist didnt have any experience we needed huh? perhaps they really werent making those WMD eh? Surely if that was a real concern or we had ANY evidence we wouldnt have released his top scientist...we would have absorbed them...or maybe their pedigree wasnt up to current evil genuis standards

[BoarSpear]

Before you bring up President Bush spying on Americans, do some research on Clinton and Carter before him. They did the exact same thing, and no one made an issue of any of it. And what exactly do you mean by Bush neglected the American people to pursue his fantasy? You always throw in these ambiguous and arbitrary accusations with your criticisms and - surprise surprise - no indication whatsoever as to how you'd do things differently.

And to finish things off, you make statements like "We formed our CIA with the remnants of the Gestapo." No, actually, we didn't. We formed our CIA with the remnants of the US Naval Admiralty for the most part. The OSS and the Early CIA were largely made up of ring-knockers from various circles considered "Washington Elite." They used assets from any foreign agency they could - because that's how you get information on what the enemy does. Name one - ONE - Nazi responsible for the founding doctrine of the CIA, NSA, or any other National Security or Intelligence Agency in the US. You can't name one, because there weren't any. Of course, as per the usual MO, you'd rather make everyone think that we as Americans (or maybe just our failed and miserable leaders) devised some grand conspiracy to build our nation so we could take the reins from the Nazis rather than getting rid of them and liberating the whole of Europe. It's absolute fantasy on your part, Boar. We don't absorb the nastiest of the scum - we use them as assets to gain insight as to how other scum works. Not to become it, but to protect ourselves agaist it in the future. Comments like "The KGB and Gestapo are running our intelligence agencies" is crap. It's crap that you invented (again, show me a single member of either of those organizations in any of our intelligence agencies, let alone running them) in order to make people think that Bush is some evil grand conspirator. On this topic and in this debate, you've created more situations and events than anyone else. You're alleging more ridiculous ties and conspiracies than ever could take place in the real world, and I think it's the result of having your every argument shot full of holes. Reality has proved most of your conspiracy theories dead wrong, so you're inventing new ones. Here's the pattern:

Boar: We're killing thousands of innocent civilians!
Mike: We're at war, and people die. Still, we do more to prevent it than any other nation on Earth, and in the entire recorded history of mankind. IF you don't think so, give me one example of how that's not a concrete fact.
Boar:..........
Mike: Still can't prove me wrong, huh?
Boar: Bush is an asshole.

----later----

Boar: America is corrupt because our intelligence agencies used people from the other team!
Mike: That's why they exist. To gather intelligence from the other side. Where did you think they'd get it if not from the opposing players turned agent?
Boar: (ignoring the question) The CIA is made up of Nazi Gestapo and KGB people!
Mike: No, it's made up of Washington elite and patriotic operatives who go out and convince our enemies to betray their own team so we can better understand how to beat them. Name one member of the KGB or the NAzi party that founded any intelligence agency in the US.
Boar: ...........
Mike: No luck?
Boar: Bush is an asshole.

Boar, simple question. What would you do if you were in charge of the country? If you inherited everything Bush has inherited and you were in his shoes, how would you make things better? Don't dance around this one - just answer it. You don't even have to worry about the intelligence agency challenge. Everyone reading knows full well you won't find anyone to prove your fantasy. So forget that part and just give us a single idea as to how you'd do things. Screw that. Give us an idea of how someone else could do things in a way you'd support! No rhetoric, no conspiracies, and no excuses. Just a plan of action. What would you do?

youre so full of shit the people on the moon can smell it....Name people in the CIA? yeah Mikey watch some more cartoons....Multiple nazis were absorbed into the CIA....I aint rereading all the FOIA documents Just to make a point to you....We did in fact absorb unit 731 scientist as well....all the Nazis we gave immunity to...that was just because? yes because we absorbed them into or ops...get freakin real....

dont even try to claim clinton spied on the american people...make up your mind...did clinton kill the CIA or support its illegal spying on US citizens....you dont cut budgets and piss off intelligence agencies then have them do illegal spying for you.... as for carter...come on man you are SOOOOOoooo playing the pyops game just like the ARMY taught you....its smells of DENY...EVADE...and COUNTER ACCUSE....

The patriot act is all your boy bush...so was preemtive attack....torture...illegally locking people away without represntation....but youre gonna claim those are all in american interest huh? BS Im not interested in any of that...except to see that it stops....

what do i mean he ignored americans to pursue his fantasy? you forget all the dead americans in New orleans already? thats ok so did your boy wonder....he forgot them the moment he diverted funds from their saftey net to play in the sand box....


HEHEHE its funny you snapped...i remember he got a little flustered last week also i gotta say, you seem to be pushing to get your face on the new GI JOE....you cant admit we have shit on our shoes...because it would mean you stepped in some of it...whatever dude...Im all wrong....so is the history channel..the freedom of information act...and multiple insider books on the subject....all the torture victims missing fingernails and bearing scars are lying...the countries who are our allies who complained about renditition made it up....the american congressmen who are upset made it up...oh wait they only push their party line thank god bush and his great people dont push their ideas and party line....every other politician lies...except bush and his people....i only give bush shit because no one else EVER has...he is totally above reproach....God save the king...damn he is so good maybe we can begg him to just stay on permanetly....after all every american loves him...his popularity and approval ratings are the best any president has ever had....and OMG all the other world leaders look up to him and respect him....

Shit mike If i had any say id say George Bush for life.

The only other idea was the one i stated very early on...rebuild America...Get the lobbiest out....put HONEST poeple in...stop making politics a career...America first...not american big business first....equal reward....equal punishment...if you want to lead the country, do so by example, when your kids get caught sneaking CRACK into rehab, they should go to the same jails everyones else kid would, not just get out of trouble because your last name is bush....when your underage daughters use illegal fake ID to buy alcohol they should be arrested like kids in daytona are when they try. when you steal millions of dollars from a corporate interest you should serve equal time to the bank robber who probably ruined fewer lives than you did....
Screw the club fed resorts....EQUAL punishment. Screw tax shelters and loopholes for the rich...buy back the Federal reserve or rename it the rich guys who charge americans interest to print money they dont have gold to back up.....thats a few ideas to get you started.

[BoarSpear]

Clinton signed two different executive orders authorizing warrantless wiretaps on US citizens during his term. He did indeed hamstring the CIA - but it wasn't the same foreign operations he killed that were doing the spying on US citizens. It was the NSA, and while he was killing foreign intel capabilities, he was spying on his own people. All in the name of big oil and campaign contributions. It's not Psyop, it's historical documented fact. But then again, maybe this is like when you thought the electoral college was a secret body of spies and conspirators... Just don't have the drive or inclination to look up the facts, do you?

Oh you mean all the NSAkeycode crap and echelon? If you think the NSA needs a backdoor or keyloggers to break into a home computer youre really funny....and yes 30% of american phones are LEGALLY tapped daily in roving sweeps, thats different than what bush instituted and you know it....keep on trying though....

As for not finding any names, I can list for you each and every director of Central Intelligence and the NSA without a whole lot of research. None are Nazis, Gestapo, or KGB. YOU are the one that made the accusations that there were Gestapo and KGB running these organizations, and then you turn around and say you can't or won't back it up? Who's full of shit, Boar?

OMG...You are freakin hysterical...you can find me a published list of every CIA and NSA project and employee? You can list all the little projects the CIA runs out of slush funds and the people who run those ops as well? shit man where do you get all this info?....you must have one hell of a "need to know"

the CIA often has a hard time remembering who worked for them, check out the warren commision if you doubt that fact.... maybe you can lend them your list ....lol

I am not saying America hasn't done some underhanded things. I never have. In fact, if you look back, I said I'm fully supportive of America fighting to win. I support treating our enemies like enemies. I do not support giving Iraqi insurgents the same rights as American citizens and I am offended by people who suggest we should. I don't have any problem at all with the Patriot Act, and I don't think it's wrong for our leaders to tap phone calls if they have reason to believe there's a link to terrorist activity. I think torture is counter-productive to most of our missions, but I am not going to feel sorry for a guy who just tried to blast US soldiers with an RPG because someone yanked out his fingernails. He's lucky that's all he got. When they stop sawing off people's heads, I'll think about changing how I feel about soldiers taking naked pictures of them in prisons. The fundamental difference between us seems to be that you think the enemies of this country deserve the same rights as our own citizens. I don't. I think that people who would exterminate us need to be treated in the same way you'd treat your own dog if it bit your kids. You'd take it out and kill it. Fact is, I don't understand why anyone would want us to treat our enemies fairly and humanely. They are trying to exterminate us! I for one think we ought to treat them like enemies. If that means using them against their own people, great. If it means beating them up, great. If beating them up means we can't get them to surrender as easily, then don't beat them up - but to me it's a matter of pragmatism, not ethics. Why do you not have a problem with our soldiers shooting them in the belly and sprawling their guts all over the sidewalks, lighting them up with high explosives, and blowing off their legs with grenades and shrapnel, but you have a problem with yanking out a fingernail or two? I honestly think you've lost all touch with reality if you say that the people trying to blow up US soldiers ought to be treated with the same considerations as US citizens. At the very least, it tells me what you think of US citizens to put them on the same level as enemy terrorists.

nice attitude....torture is proven not to work...people will lie to stop the pain...besides the point of torture is to see what they know...so you have no idea if they know anything or not, but just in case..lets rip out his nails...pour gas in his eyes...a little on his crotch.....electrocute his testicles....anally rape him...see if he knows anything or not...yeah dude, were the good guys

I've also said I do not support everything Bush has done. I've said I disagree with him in some of his ideals and his actions. The reason I support him is because he at the very least TAKES action (unlike some armchair quarterbacks we are seeing), he stands up for what he believes, and because he's our President. I don't have to agree with everything the man does, says, or believes. When I disagree, I go out and vote. I write to my congressman and to the senators on the Hill. But what I won't do is say:

Oh i see as long as youre killing somebody, youre happy...it might not be the right bad guys but hey we will flush them out with the fight....it doesnt have to be the right action, it just has to be action....whats this big military for if we cant kill somebody with it huh?

and then sit here and bitch about things without getting involved. Hell, man, that's why I went back into the service! I believe in this cause, and am willing to go wherever they need me to go to support it. You have some great points in your list of suggestions. Some of them are not real practical, but some are amazingly overdue. So go and do some of it. I am frustrated by the talk, same as you. I'm frustrated by the lack of action even more. Like this thread. You seem eager as hell to cast accusations like the CIA being run by Gestapo, but despite the fact that every director since the OSS is a matter of public record, you won't back up what you say, and you try to downplay it when someone calls Bullshit. I'm not disputing how many agents the CIA or anyone else runs. I told you - that's their entire job! You're the one who tries to make it seem nefarious or conspiratorial. Out of curiosity, where would you like our services to get their information if not from enemy agents? The local high school library?

running operations mike...running projects contributing ideas and youre being silly in how you try to deny it...Yeah im sure they list every asset right? Every agent? every project? every CIA guy who runs a high school ROTC program for instance?

I believe this is conflict has passed the turning point...its inevitable outcome is nuclear war...nothing we say or do will deter the corporate run world. I dont know who is right and and who is wrong....except that every non terrorist death we are guilty of works against us....im tired of working against myself...you go right ahead kill some people...unless you kill them all the problem aint going away....maybe its time to back up and figure how we got here? Oh yeah ww3 is gonna be over Israel...right or wrong were all gonna die, over ISRAEL and IRAN....hell we invaded IRAQ over this battle already according to some people

Bottom line is, I know you're just pushing buttons and playing the other side to a degree. But I also know that you have some outstanding ideas. I think at least some of your time ought to be devoted to sharing those as well rather than committing 100% of your time and effort to shitting on each and every decision, idea, and action our current President puts forth. So far, you haven't done anything better, and you're guilty of at least as many falsehoods. Granted, you haven't bothered to put yourself in a position of authority, and your "bad intelligence" (I swear! The Electoral College is a big secret! And the CIA is run by KGB Spies! And Carter never spied on Americans!) doesn't put people at risk, but aren't you the one who's always saying we are judged by our own actions and we can't be guilty of doing those things we accuse our enemies of doing? Well, I submit to you that you're doing exactly and precisely that which you accuse Bush of doing. You are twisting rumors (I won't even call them facts) to suit your own fantasies, and telling stories to get people to see things your way. Don't you even see a little bit of hypocrisy there?

Evade...spin....counter accuse....nice closing arguement....except i killed it....A list of CIA AND NSA projects and EMPLOYEES hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....dude you kill me.....

[jubaji]

It is just too fun seeing ol' boarspear get bitch-slapped around mercilessly like this!


Seems to happen quite frequently, but its still fun!

[BoarSpear]

Don't need to. You said these guys were RUNNING our intelligence agencies. I can show you a list of everyone that has RUN the agencies in question, and none of them fit your description of being KGB, Gestapo, or Nazi. Once again, you stuck your foot calf-deep in your mouth, made an idiotic accusation that you can't back up, and now you're trying to crawfish out of what you said. You're 100% wrong in your conspiracy theories about who runs the intelligence agencies. 100%, indisputably, without a doubt, wrong. You know it, I know it, and everyone who just read your feeble attempt to twist the facts knows it. Face it, man. You made a ridiculous claim hoping the teenie-bopper audience would accept it without question (same way you probably did) and that no one else would look into it.



No. not at all. I am for taking action rather than sitting around making accusations and alleging conspiracies. I am for doing what is necessary to protect US interests, and I am for backing up the resolutions we've made with action instead of empty threats. I am for not letting people off the hook when they've demonstrated both the capability and the willingness to invade other nations unprovoked, and I am for stopping those people who'd offer rewards to anyone willing to kill my fellow citizens. I don't think we went after the wrong people, and I don't think we took the wrong action. I understand that you're a fan of Saddam's and all, but I think we were right to get rid of him, and I think the fact that Iraq is enjoying the most prosperous period in their recent history is justification enough.



You're either delusional or illiterate here. I never dsaid that the CIA lists every asset. Besides, I also said it was their entire job to go out and recruit the bad guys. Once again, YOU made the assertion that the US intelligence agencies were being RUN BY gestapo, nazis, and KGB members. I said you're utterly and completely full of shit. I was right. I don't need to find the names of even one asset to prove that the leadership of the organizations are not who and what you say they are, becasue the leadership of all these organizations is a matter of public record.



Go back and find the quote. Quote me and show everyone where I said I'd list projects and assets and employees. You can't find it anymore than you can find a single fact to support what you're saying. I said I'd list the directors of those agencies, and I can. And as usual, you're accusing me of spinning and evading, but you are the one lying about what I said and denying what you said. You killed nothing at all, except your own consiracy theory. Trouble is, rather than admit that you're totally off your rocker, you changed what was said. Instead of saying "Okay, maybe I was wrong about our intelligence services being run by Gestapo." you tried to make it seem like I offered up a list of things I never even mentioned. You're completely fabricating statements to try and knock the attention off the fact that you're stone-cold wrong. Your arguments aren't going to be very credible if you can't even read them yourself. So as to keep you from spinning this, here's what you said:



Define "running" if you would. I'm sure a lot of people, like myself, would take that to mean "in charge of." If that's the case, then I can show you exactly where you're wrong. I can show that, becasue like everyone else in America, I can find the names of everyone who's been in charge of our intelligence agencies and show you that they are not what you say they are. If you don't mean "in charge of" then you agree that the people who are "in charge of" these agencies are doing their jobs by actively seeking and acquiring assets knowledgeable on the activities of our enemies.

You're just mad because this is the third time I've asked you to find even a single scrap of evidence to support one of your hare-brained arguments and you still haven't succeeded in any of them. You still won't find a single country that devotes more to avoiding and minimizing collateral damage than the US, you still won't find a single leader of any US intelligence agency who was a Gestapo or a KGB operative, and you won't find one instance where I said I'd list any CIA projects. You're 0-3, Boar. I think maybe you're getting frustrated with the unmitigated failure to prove these claims. It's okay, though. I'm sure it's Bush's fault for misleading you somehow.

So are you getting that paycheck yet? You should be....you built your entire attack around wording and you know it....did the scientist or agents who worked in the field get the leadership role in the agency? of course not...people might not appreciate that...did they teach the up and coming agents ? yes...did they continue reasearch for us? yes...if research was set up to follow their work, who was running it? the ex whoever we turned thats who....play your word games dude....you have to recruit for your army...people dont believe in the cause anymore, you have to offer bonuses and college and medical...then renig later. Face it, people are waking up and smelling the dead bodies stacking up on our watch...we have secret prisons...we torture SUSPECTS...we spy on americans and yet Im the bad guy for mentioning it...okay dude collect your check....yeah arent you proud, you found excuses for killing kids...torturing SUSPECTS, shredding the constitution and secret prisons....nice job, you convinced yourself its all okay, now can you con the rest of the world into believing you? that is what pyops is all about right? casting your spin on the situation? i see why you were needed.

Oh yeah, BTW
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CIA used Nazis in South American Dictatorships
Author

* Jail Kissinger

License
public domainThis work is in the public domain

Some reasons to Boycott Exxon, Chase , Citigroup, etc...
With Congress' " Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act" of 1998, many records of CIA collaboration with Nazis are being opened to the public, though still heavily censored in many cases, by the Interagency Working Group (IWG)(see their website: www.archives.gov/iwg ).

PRESCOTT BUSH([search]), Bush jr's grandfather, sold $50 million in bonds for German steel magnate Fritz Thyssen, the top financer of the Nazi party. In 1942 the Union Bank, in which Prescott Bush was a director, was closed by the US government under the "Trading with the Enemies Act". $30 million in Nazi bank accounts were confiscated. J.D. ROCKEFELLER II and his sons controlled the following corporations known to have served and supplied the Nazi war effort: STANDARD OIL (todays EXXON), which supplied much of the Nazi's gasoline from South American refineries, and was in a tight business partnership with the German company IG FARBEN. FARBEN built Auschwitz concentration camp as a slave labor camp, where 4 million Jews were killed. Rockefellers' lawyer John McCloy, who was deputy-secretary of Defense, twice blocked a plan to bomb the railroad bridges and gas chambers of Auschwitz. (The Crime and Punishment of IG FARBEN, by Joseph Borkin, Barnes and Noble, details the "business marriage" of STANDARD OIL and FARBEN, including the transfer of 2000 patents to the German war machine). Rockefellers' CHASE MANHATTAN bank served Nazi accounts in Paris, forclosed Jewish accounts, and after the war was involved in transferring the Reichsbank to Swiss and South American accounts. Rockefellers' ITT built important communications systems for the Nazis, and his IBM Corp. built ID machines for the holocaust (source: IBM and the Holocaust, Edwin Black, Crown Press). In 1952 John McCloy released the Nazi industrialists and gave them back their factories. IG FARBEN was divided into Bayer, Hoechst, and BASF, today among the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world.-

1947: CIA FOUNDED AS HANDLING AGENCY FOR NAZIS ABSORBED INTO U.S. MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX: In 1947, Rockefellers' lawyer/spy Allen Dulles brought 2000 Nazi scientists into the US (OPERATION PAPERCLIP), to run NASA's rocket program and chemical/ biological weapons programs. In West Germany, Dulles hired Hitlers' master spy Reinhart Gehlen to revive the SS spy agency as the Gehlen Org., which became West Germanys' spy agency BND. Dulles gave Gehlen $200 million in US taxdollars over 10 years to rehire thousands of Nazi SS and GESTAPO veterans, allowing the Nazis to organise underground networks called ODESSA and DIE SPINNE (the spider). These networks created The RATLINE, an escape route to Argentina for thousands of Nazi war criminals sought by Israel, Russia, France etc.. These included notorious Nazis like Adolph Eichmann, Joseph Mengele, Otto Skorzeny, Walther Rauff and Klaus Barbie, who worked for the CIA-BND as advisers to the dictators of Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia, running torture centers, death squads and cocaine rings. IN 1947 HENRY KISSINGER SERVED AS GERMAN TRANSLATOR IN ARMY INTELLIGENCE, to help Dulles set up these secret networks. He personally "interrogated" many of the top Nazi prisoners held by the US Army, who were absorbed into the CIA-BND. (see: The CIAs worst kept secret, by M. Lee, under Archived article "Nazi echo" at www.consortiumnews.com ) In 1952 Dulles ordered SS comando Skorzeny to bring 200 Nazis to Egypt as military advisors to Abdul Nasser in his war with Israel (see: Postwar Arab links to the ODESSA network, at https://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/naz...twar_egypt.htm ).

DULLES BEGAN THE CIA POLICY OF COUP D'ETATS, IN WHICH DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS WERE REPLACED BY MILITARY DICTATORSHIPS. as follows:

-----1953, IRAN: President Mossadegh overthrown by the pro-nazi Shah Pahlavi, who kills and tortures thousands and opens Irans' oilfields to Rockefellers' EXXON corp.

-----1954, GUATEMALA: President Arbenz overthrown by the military, which by 1989 killed 200,000 Mayan Indians. To protect assets of United Fruit co.(Chiquita Bananas). Dulles was a director.

-----1961, ECUADOR: Pres. Arosemana overthrown

-----1961-64, BRAZIL: Pres. Joao Gaulart overthrown

-----1961-65, CONGO: Pres. Lumumba overthrown by Mobutu, who rules corruptly for 32 years and gives 10,000 square miles to OTRAG, a German rocket company run by former Nazi scientists.

-----1963, USA: President JF Kenneddy assassinated; John McCloy and Allen Dulles,(who JFK had fired as CIA director), "serve" on the Warren Commission, which claims there was no conspiracy involved. Lyndon Johnson reverses Kennedy's order to withdraw troops from Vietnam.

-----1963-65, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC: Pres.Bosch ousted

-----1965, INDONESIA: President Sukarno overthrown by Gen. Suharto, who led a massacre (CIA assisted)of up to 1 million Indonesians and ran concentration camps with over 750,000 prisoners whose arms were tatooed with letters. He opened Indonesias' oilfields to Rockefellers EXXON, Mobil and Chevron co's. Rockefellers' Goodyear Tire co. made use of Suhartos' slave labor camps.

-----1965-67, GREECE: Pres. Papandreous overthrown

-----1971, BOLIVIA: President Torres overthrown by Gen. Banzer, who tortures and kills thousands with the help of Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie. Barbie runs the major cocaine ring known as AMADEUS, a lucrative CIA operation. In 1983 he is extradited to France for his war crimes trial.

-----1973, September 11, CHILE: President Allende overthrown by Gen. Pinochet in a bloody coup in which 3000 Chileans are massacred. The Rockefellers' ITT corp., now run by John McCloy, donates $1 million to the coup effort, which is orchestrated by Henry Kissinger.(source: Rogue State, by William Blum)

.......1976-OPERATION CONDOR, SOUTH AMERICAN ASSASSINATION CARTEL, THE YEAR GEORGE BUSH SR. IS CIA DIRECTOR. In 1976, Nelson Rockefeller was Vice President (to Ford), and his advisor Henry Kissinger was Secretary of State. In this year Kissinger's puppet dictator Pinochet, of Chile, organised Operation CONDOR, to co-ordinate death squad assassinations by the secret police of the dictators of Chile, Brasil, Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay . 30,000 leftists were assassinated/ executed/ "disappeared". Former Chilean ambassador Orlando Letelier was car bombed in Washington DC by Chilean agents. Operation CONDOR was based out of a bizarre Nazi colony in Chile known as COLONIA DIGNIDAD, whose founder is wanted in Germany for kidnapping and molesting young boys. Colonia Dignidad was used by Pinochets team to train for the 1973 coup d'etat, and then served as a torture center where prisoners were "disappeared". Many of the top ranking Nazi war criminals in South America are believed to have lived in Colonia Dignidad. In 1993 a cache of documents called the "ARCHIVES OF TERROR" was found in Paraguay detailing Nazi war criminal involvement in Operation Condor, and listing victims, including Israeli agents who were trying to find Nazis to bring to trial. It is highly probable that George Bush sr and Henry Kissinger knew about, and directed, Operation CONDOR. General Pinochet was never ashamed of his pro-Nazi fetish, preferring Nazi uniforms and marching music. In 1985 an American professor, Boris Weisfeiler, was disappeared at Colonia Dignidad. Today Dignidad is a prospering commune valued at $5 billion, but closed to the public and protected by the Chilean military. Today David Rockefeller is the scion of his families' empire, running Chase-Manhattan Bank, the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), and Rockefeller Center, NYC. Kissinger was Bush jrs choice to head the September 11th investigation. Paul Bremer III, former Director of Kissinger Associates, was Bush's appointed ruler of Iraq([search]). (Sources: Operation Condor, Virtual Truth Commission: www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/condor.htm

---Operation Condor and Pinochet, by Lucy Komisar, LA Times, Nov.1, 1998.

--- Chile, declassified US documents on Pinochet and the 1973 coup, P. Kornbluh, National Security Archive.

---CIA compiled Indonesian Death Lists in 1965, by K.Kadane- www.namebase.org/kadane/html

---The Beast Reawakens, by Martin Lee, published by Little, Brown

http://baltimore.indymedia.org/newswire/display/8025/index.php

[BoarSpear]

nice i like how you saw the rockets they worked on but skipped the chemical and biological weapons....Gee i wonder why, oh yeah because those would be the nice scientist who devised the gases and experiments in the death camps huh? yeah those chemical agents they developed to try to wipe out the jews...those are the scientist you conviently skipped mentioning

if you dont find the fact that the bush's have had financial dealings with our enemies all the back to ww2 (no not every enemy but too many of them)has any reflection on the families character and business partners then how can we even discuss this rationally?....just hitler and saddamm is bad enough....but they also have ties to other problems dont they?

again dude the Im just mentioning the bush's becuase they currently run the show, and have an interesting history of dealing with dictators we have to go to war to disarm....

[BoarSpear]

hey mike, suppose you tell me which NASA program this research was for?

Unit 731
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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Body disposal at Unit 731
Body disposal at Unit 731

Unit 731 (731部隊) was a secret military medical unit of the Imperial Japanese Army that researched biological warfare and other topics through human experimentation during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) and World War II era. For information on its origin see Kempeitai Political Department and Epidemic Prevention Research Laboratory.

The unit was disguised as a water purification unit. It was based in Pingfan, near the city of Harbin in northeastern China, the region which was then part of the puppet state of Manchukuo. Various Eastern and Western sources estimate anywhere from 3,000 to 200,000 Chinese, Korean, Allied civilians and POWs were directly or indirectly killed by Unit 731's experiments.

There were other units besides Unit 731, which serves as a general term in describing the Japanese biological warfare program. Other units include Unit 543 (Hailar), Unit 773 (Songo unit), Unit 100 (Changchun), Unit 1644 (Nanjing), Unit 1855 (Beijing), Unit 8604 (Guangzhou), and Unit 9420 (Singapore). The acts of Unit 731 are one of many major war crimes committed by the Imperial Japanese Army from the occupation of Manchuria in 1931 to the end of World War II in 1945.

After these laboratories were destroyed by the Japanese to hide their activities, many of the scientists involved went on to prominent careers in politics, academia and business. The United States granted amnesty, allowing these scientists to go unprosecuted in exchange for their experimentation data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

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http://roswell.fortunecity.com/skulls/37/unit731.htm

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Some of the most gruesome atrocities of World War II - medical experiments on Chinese, Russian and American prisoners - were committed in China by Japan's infamous Unit 731.

UNIT 731

Fifty Years later, the Japanese continue to deny or minimize this part of their wartime record, refused demands for a clear apology. The cover-up was assisted by the United States in the postwar years. Rather than allow Unit 731 research on biological warfare to fall into Soviet hands, America shielded some of the war's worst criminals in exchange for their knowledge. Today, victims of the experiments are at last seeking compensation in the courts.

http://technologyartist.com/unit_731/

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Japanese Unit 731

Biological Warfare Unit
Tokyo
Memorial
Tower
for
Unit 731.

War Crimes Against Humanity

Japanese Imperial Army's Unit 731 killed thousands of Chinese and Russians held prisoner in Japanese-occupied Manchuria, in experiments to develop chemical and biological weapons.

In the autumn of 1945, MacArthur acceded to granting immunity to members of Unit 731 in exchange for data of research on biological warfare. "The value to the U.S. of Japanese BW data is of such importance to national security as to far outweigh the value accruing from war crimes' prosecution." The BW information obtained from Japanese sources should be retained in 'top secret' intelligence channels and not be employed as war crimes evidence and not be fallen into the Soviet hands. The State Department disagreed over a two year period and the topic simply disappeared.

Why did the US lose interest in pursuing the issue of war criminals? China became communist, Japan was a required base for operations in Korea, and Japan became a major trading partner and economic power in the East.
Unit 731
o 1925 -- Japan refuses Geneva Convention ban on biological weapons.
o 1932 -- Japanese troops invade Manchuria. Shiro Ishii, a physician and army officer who was intrigued by germ warfare, begins preliminary experiments.
o 1936 -- Unit 731, a biological-warfare unit disguised as a water-purification unit, is formed. Ishii builds huge compound -- more than 150 buildings over six square kilometers -- outside the city of Harbin, Manchuria. Some 9,000 test subjects eventually die at the compound.
o 1942 -- Ishii begins field tests of germ warfare on Chinese soldiers and civilians. Tens of thousands die of bubonic plague, cholera, anthrax and other diseases. U.S. soldiers captured in Philippines are sent to Manchuria.
o 1945 -- Japanese troops blow up the headquarters of Unit 731 in final days of Pacific war. Ishii orders 150 remaining 'subjects' killed to cover up their experimentation.
o 1946 -- U.S. makes a deal with Ishii for germ warfare data based on human experimentation in exchange for immunity from war-crimes prosecution.

Sources: ''Factories of Death,'' by Sheldon H. Harris (Rutledge, 1994)
and ''Prisoners of the Japanese: POWS of World War II in the Pacific,'' by Gavan Daws (William Morrow, 1994).

http://www.ww2pacific.com/unit731.html

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Over the years, we have heard about the infamous Unit 731... home to Japan's secret Biological - Chemical Warfare experimentation program, that used human guinea pigs as terminal experimentation material. But for the most part, we have heard second, third-hand reports and read the accounts of western reasearchers. Recently, by combining the surviving documents of Unit 731 and the Japanese government, accounts of surviving POWs and civilians, and the accounts of surviving members of Unit 731, we are beginning to recognize the despicable level of barabarism that was engaged in these horrorific places... Pingfan and Mukden, Manchuria, and even in Japan itself.

The Unit 731 section of this site, has been separated purposefully. The reason being... the accounts and pictures herein are simply too disturbing to present without a warning. With that in mind:

WARNING - The accounts and pictures you will see in this section are extremely upsetting and offensive. They depict the wartime atrocities of Japanese doctors, military personnel and scientists, who used tens of thousands of Chinese, Russian, American and other civilians and prisoners of war, as human guinea pigs in medical experimentation programs. They are graphic. If you are easily upset, or offended, read no further. You may EXIT by selecting an EXIT option below, or selecting the BACK button on your browser.

http://www.aiipowmia.com/731/731caveat.html