Mr. President and the NSA Wiretap Mess

[Hardball]

I didn't see a thread on this and I hope I am not hijacking someone else's thread but here is my opinion on the NSA wiretap scandal.

First of all if it is going to exonerate me as a terrorist suspect then I am all for being monitored. We face a very dangerous enemy and if we need clandestine operations or covert/electronic spying to save American lives then why is the press/media so upset about the spying? The enenmy is not playing by rules, so why is the press making such a big deal out of our Clandestine operations. I agree with the President when He said, "The fact that we are even discussing this has helped the enemy". We are in a war. Do these people in the press/media have something to hide? Are they sympathizers with Al Qaieda and other terrorist organizations? These are the same people who give away valuable information about our Combat Soldiers and their strategic locations during their press coverage. Please give me a break, I'm siding with the Pres. on this issue. Spy on me, I don't care. I'm Patriotic and support clandestine operations that may help to prevent another 911.

[IPON]

Did you hear the last speech by our "president" he admitted he was wrong. There is nor was any declaration of war You really have to wonder who is teh enemy. What Bush did with the war was analogous to what the transit workers did in NYC last week....wrong. Ref: Macarthy and comunism this is not he first time this country has gotton paranoid. Everyone one is entitled to thier opinions but consider that saying that it is ok to have your freedom violated is almost a contradiction to being patriotic.

[Hardball]

Did you hear the last speech by our "president" he admitted he was wrong. There is nor was any declaration of war You really have to wonder who is teh enemy. What Bush did with the war was analogous to what the transit workers did in NYC last week....wrong. Ref: Macarthy and comunism this is not he first time this country has gotton paranoid. Everyone one is entitled to thier opinions but consider that saying that it is ok to have your freedom violated is almost a contradiction to being patriotic.

No, I didn't hear the Pres. speech. I really don't think he should have apologized for using clandestine operations. If the press can give away Military secrets and military positions during combat then The Government should be able to circumvent possible Terrorist attacks by any means necessary.

Thank you for your opinion and for starting off this intellectual discussion.

[Hardball]

It's not like these people even know they've been listened to.

I've done some self study on electronic spying; and crackling or static in your phone is a dead giveaway. However, the clandestine books that I studied are all antiquated now. I don't care cause Just like DNA, a lot of people were actually exonerated by the secret NSA spying. I have never even visited an Islamic Website nor Bomb making website. I'm glad the Feds listen to me cause now they know I'm pure American. No offense to Muslim readers.

[BoarSpear]

Other than to say I agree with you Tom, I am going to stay out of this one for fear that I will be pursued by BoarSpear and end up hijacking this thread like so many others. I agree that it's an acceptable use of executive power in my opinion, and I don't think he needed to apologize except to maintain the approval ratings he'll need in order to accomplish anything in the remainder of his term. It's good to see that someone besides me doesn't feel like anything in my daily life is all that spectacular or interesting to my government. If they want to watch me, cool. I think they'd be awful bored, but I don't have a problem with it. And if it uncovers things that the overexposed channels of our mainstream efforts can't, then it was all worthwhile.

For that matter, even if it doesn't uncover anything, who cares? It's not like these people even know they've been listened to. Unless they do something that requires the feds to blow down the door and arrest them, there's really no way of knowing that anyone has listened to you at all!

you crack me up Mike...youre gonna stay out of this so i dont hi jack the thread? .....huh.... It sure looks like you then proceeded to cheerlead the spy ops.

[Hardball]

What I wonder is ;what part technology plays in all of this. I mean, can they see us or just hear us? A lot of this clandestine stuff is TOP SECRET so how can you break the law if you are using Top Secret and classified techniques? For that matter, how did they get caught? The government is set up for checks and balances between the Executive, Judicial and Legislative Branches thus I doubt if any laws were broken. But then Again American Government is the Only course I ever failed since middle school. An I have a Graduate Degree.

[IPON]

I've done some self study on electronic spying; and crackling or static in your phone is a dead giveaway. However, the clandestine books that I studied are all antiquated now. I don't care cause Just like DNA, a lot of people were actually exonerated by the secret NSA spying. I have never even visited an Islamic Website nor Bomb making website. I'm glad the Feds listen to me cause now they know I'm pure American. No offense to Muslim readers.

Now hardball I understand stand what you are saying but reiligious preference has nothing to do with nationality. In fact I think it was an american that was also helping Al Quaeda (from memory). I don't disagree with protecting the country, but I am saying that you have to also look at the truth of this country. Unfortunatley, I see the abuse of more power rather than any assistance as I doubt the NSA has problems tapping anyone's phone in the past. And by the way, at least in teh 80s you are 100% correct about the noise on phone taps.

Regarding the apology, I think the point is that there are famlies destroyed soldiers killed and maimed as a result of a "war" that had little to do with terroism. I am patriotic as well but not blind (and I am not calling you blind) fighting for a purpose is fine fighting to fight is silly. We establish democracy in another country but are barely democratic ourselves there is some irony here.

In anycase, I think the bright side will be the deminishing unemployment rate when they start hiring all the bpeople to check all the email, cell phone and land lines. Hey maybe I should start my own training center I could teach NSA wire tapping and McMAs ...... think of the $$$$$$$

[Hardball]

Hardball,
I watched a special (I think it was on the History Channel) about some DEA guys and US Marshalls who were pursuing some fugitive. He was a murderer and a drug dealer, and they suspected he'd try to contact his family and friends, so they recorded all calls to and from those associates' homes. Now, I believe that this was authorized by warrants, although I honestly don't remember. However, they tracked and recorded his calls right from the switching station. This got rid of all the tell-talle clicks and static of line traces or hardware on the end-user's phone itself. Also, I've heard a lot of people say that scanners and the like can pick up cordless phones without the user really being aware of it either. Did you learn anything about those methods when you studied the subject? I only ask because I'm pretty clueless about how that stuff works, but it would seem that scanners and sub-station monitoring would get by a lot of the issues you mentioned.

First of all, thanks for keeping this thread alive. Next, technology has greatly impacted the clandestine business more than we will ever know. Look at everday items like cellphones, p.c., ipods, digital cameras, red light photos, etc etc etc. Law enforcement and spy agencys have to had benefited from technology also. It's just common sense. Most of that equipment is top secret or classified. The books I had were old from the 70's or 80's. We are sending robots to mars and what have you. As for the static in the line, I am sure that the problem should be corrected but the unassuming mark would never put 2 and 2 together. My understanding is if the Govt. has a warrant; a lot of eavesdropping can be done right from the Phone company. In the old days of I spy and Maxwell Smart, agents broke in to a location and planted their bugs and cameras in covert locations such as lampshades and behind furniture. I worked at several large department stores and I can tell you that pinhole cameras are wireless and hard to see with the naked eye. The majority of electronic spying equipment is wireless and has a range of several miles. I know this from the relationship I had with security personell at places like Macys and May co. You can install a moniotring sytem in your home that will watch and listen to your entrances for less than 200 bucks. Look at your world news and local news coverage. Have you everwondered how the caught so many crimes and accidents on film. It's the satellites and the cameras.

Rule of thumb; because of the space program and technology; most spying equipment is tiny and wireless.

[Hardball]

Another point, becareful with wireless home security systems, Professional crooks can pick up your frequency and actually see what you see. I use wire base monitors and cameras.

[Hardball]

Say, if an agency wants to spy on you from the phone company directly, there's no way at all to detect it, is there?

There is always a way to detect something. I just don't know how to do it. Ever heard of the MasterMind Principle?{1} It's basically surrounding yourself with smart people in all fields and walks of life. People who are smarter than you and are experts in their field.

Footnote 1: Mastermind Principle--Napolean Hill, Think and Grow Rich

[Hardball]

If you really wanna see some High Tech Espionage techniques go Rent the movie "Enemy of the State", With Densel Washington and Sean Connery. What was once science fiction is now outdated techniques. The movie is about 4 or 5 years old. Full of clandestine monitoring techniques. You will enjoy it.

[eXcessiveForce]

personally, i don't quite see the need.


we already have a top secret court the approves warrants for covert spying. Why do we need to have spying without them. I can see maybe being able to wiretape for 24 hours based on timely information. But I still think this should then go back for a warrant.


I am not in the habit of giving up any of the freedoms that were designed to keep us free. Realize that the american revolution would have been stamped out if measures like this had been available.

The problem isn't when they are listening to the bad guys, it's what happens when the bad guys change? all over the world we see governments who decide that their citizens who disagree with government or a particular leader then become bad guys.

Do you really want the government to decide that left, right, or center is the enemy and then have the ability to spy on that group which may lead to being arrested. It doesn't have to be about making bombs, it could be something as simple as agreeing or not agreeing on abortion, or health care or social security.

There must always be some oversight, otherwise the will be corruption.

[eXcessiveForce]

personally, i don't quite see the need.


we already have a top secret court the approves warrants for covert spying. Why do we need to have spying without them. I can see maybe being able to wiretape for 24 hours based on timely information. But I still think this should then go back for a warrant.


I am not in the habit of giving up any of the freedoms that were designed to keep us free. Realize that the american revolution would have been stamped out if measures like this had been available.

The problem isn't when they are listening to the bad guys, it's what happens when the bad guys change? all over the world we see governments who decide that their citizens who disagree with government or a particular leader then become bad guys.

Do you really want the government to decide that left, right, or center is the enemy and then have the ability to spy on that group which may lead to being arrested. It doesn't have to be about making bombs, it could be something as simple as agreeing or not agreeing on abortion, or health care or social security.

There must always be some oversight, otherwise there will be corruption.

[Hardball]

personally, i don't quite see the need.
we already have a top secret court the approves warrants for covert spying.

That means the Judicial and Executive Branch is involved. Why do they leave out the Legislative branch? (ie. Congressman and Senators)

[eXcessiveForce]

the laws that are in place that allows for this action were already put in place by the congress.

legality and enforcement are the issues we must deal with. Congress may choose to act by making it illegal but at this point this matter is beyond them.