Mr. President and the NSA Wiretap Mess

[fayd]

For what it's worth:

Anyone who believes that in the technology based "connected" world we live in you truly have "privacy", you're fooling yourself. A teenager with computer skills can break into your computer and see everything. Anyone with the right electronics knowledge can utilize any camera you have in your home (including baby video monitors). Anyone with a good scanner can listen in on anyones' cell and cordless phone calls. So the privacy issue is really, in a way, a moot point.

Something that our beloved media forgets to tell us (so that we can have an opinion without actually education ourselves on the issues) ...we are fighting an unconventional war against an unconventional enemy that will die rather that give up. The writers of the constitution probablly didn't see that one coming. We have to adapt and approach this war differently ...or we risk faliure, and that's not an option.

Finally, as a parent, I want to see my kid grow up, not get blown up ...so yes, I support the president.

Train well...

[BoarSpear]

Well said. And in recognizing that technology like this may have stamped out the American Revolution, does it not make sense to employ these means to stamp out any other revolutions (like the ones terrorists long to create here at home) on our own turf?

I get confused sometimes, becasue it sometimes sounds as though people think it's bad to try and protect the society we've built. It sounds like people think it's bad to want to preserve our way of life, or that it's bad to put our needs above the needs of other nations. I don't think it's bad at all! I live here, and I want my country to be the best place in the world to live. i'm with you, Fayd.

If they could have stamped out the first revolution, we woudlnt be having this discussion would we?......Trust me those in charge are writing the laws to INSURE there wont be a SECOND American Revolution.....I do believe the founding fathers were sure there WOULD be a need for a SECOND revolution....at minimum the threat of the second revolution should be available to the citizens of this country....Those in charge today would refer to the same patriots who liberated us as terrorist...

[eXcessiveForce]

The problem is when government changes and society needs to be protected from it.

as was the case is cuba, russia, germany. At this moment it may be essential for the populus to be able to revolt to preserve what we know consider our way of life.

[eXcessiveForce]

we aren't talking about 1000 guys in the US. or 10,000, but what happens when 65% of the populous no longer feels safe. When rights are taken away and things we would never imagine happening in the US do happen.

It's hard to imagine that it could come to this, but we have only been around a short time. Rome fell, so could the US one day. terrorists will have very little impact on the US no matter how many buildings they try and blow up. It is a popular movement that leads to change.


I am a bush supporter, it's not about him though. It is what happens 20 years from now when someone else is holding the reigns. Security is an illusion, protecting those things we should hold most dear is important. namely liberty. Others have lost theirs in the past. some quickly others more slowly over time. It is still lost at what ever speed.

[Hardball]

We lost a lot in 1984, "George Orwell".

[BoarSpear]

we aren't talking about 1000 guys in the US. or 10,000, but what happens when 65% of the populous no longer feels safe. When rights are taken away and things we would never imagine happening in the US do happen.

It's hard to imagine that it could come to this, but we have only been around a short time. Rome fell, so could the US one day. terrorists will have very little impact on the US no matter how many buildings they try and blow up. It is a popular movement that leads to change.

Our founding fathers KNEW we would find ourselves in the position we now face...
...........................................................................

" [The purpose of a written constitution is] to bind up the several branches of government by certain laws, which, when they transgress, their acts shall become nullities; to render unnecessary an appeal to the people, or in other words a rebellion, on every infraction of their rights, on the peril that their acquiescence shall be construed into an intention to surrender those rights."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia [1782]

"The rights of conscience, of bearing arms, of changing the government, are declared to be inherent in the people."
-Fisher Ames, Ames to F.R. Minoe, 12 June 1789, id. at 53-54

"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny."
-Nicholas Collins, Fayetteville Gazette October 12th, 1789 at 2 col. 1-2

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States."
-Noah Webster, N. Webster An Examination into the Leading Principles of the
Federal Constitution (1787) in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States 56 (P. Ford ed. 1888)
.........................................................................
sounds to me like the time has come to watch the laws the govt writes and the actions it takes VERY carefully.

apparently the GOVT RESENTS being watched though.....

check out this POST 9-11 FBI flyer

I put the ADDY in the next post....its huge...and for some reason you cant link to it..but copy and paste it into your browser...

[BoarSpear]

http://famguardian.org/Subjects/LawAndGovt/LegalEthics/ConstDefenderTerorsts.pdf#search='joint%20terrorism%20task%20force%20MCSOTerroristflyer'

[Hardball]

Hey what's up with this imminent domain? The Government can legally take your home or property? Any scholarly material on that?

[BoarSpear]

i didnt wander into gun control....if we cant discuss dissenting opinions without getting spied on and labled as a possible terrorists then how the hell will we ever be able to spread the word it time for the new revolution? If everything except your thoughts are monitored how will you communicate when its time to warn others the republicrats, ERRRR i mean the redcoats are coming? If we are all taken out Randy Weaver and Waco style then having the guns wont matter will it? Not when they use the US military on you it wont....so see the illegal spying on everyone IS the same isue as gun control...We need guns to protect us from an evil regime, they need to spy to quell the rebellion before you use those weapons. Never forget the govt isnt protecting YOU, its protecting the SYSTEM.

[eXcessiveForce]

it is just a view of who the enemies may be. You art talking of intercepting and attack from abroad (the bad guys) from the other view it is intercepting and even pre-empting an attack from government.


Government goes the way of the wind. Russia was an enemy, russia is a friend. Osama is an agent, osama is a terrorist.

I have no problem with the wiretaps, i just don't see why it is necessary to do them without taking them to the secret court who's only job is to authorize things like secret wiretaps.

I also take issue with video monitoring on the highway, supermarket, and such. However in that case you are talking about things done in public.

Imagine telling someone in Ireland that you were very tired of the (political party of your chosing) and that you had proof that that particular party had done something ilegal. Now imagine that for some reason that political party is in power and happens to be listening on your conversation. The next day you are arrested for terrorist ties to the IRA. Shot resisting arrest.

yes that is an extreme example, but already we have seen the leaking of information to destroy peoples credibility, the use of the IRS as a weapon against people, and secret files kept by the FBI on people who had done nothing to warrant it.

I simply think they should go and ask the judge if it's okay. It is just some protection and how hard would it really be to do? we could even have recording that if not aproved by the judge would just erase. We have that kind of technology.

[Hardball]

PS:
Let's do Imminent Domain in its own thread. That one will get a lot of people going, and will invariably hijack this thread in the blink of an eye. I have some opinions on the topic, but I'd like to learn a little more about the toppic we're on before letting it slip into the ranting and raving I'm likely to do on Imminent Domain.

Which forumn should we start it in?

[Hardball]

If the wiretaps are secret and there is a secret court then nobody will never know the truth because everything is secret. The latest I read from the headlines of the usa today-- is the focus of the investigation is now, how did the info leak out. Who is the whistleblower?

[BoarSpear]

It isnt "just" wiretapps They also use scare tactics to keep people from demonstrating in the first place...they are using police state tactics to suppress your freedom of speech.

Watch this report, its in 3 segments, then tell me the govt isnt out of hand...
Before its over hoover is gonna look like a pretty good guy.

http://www.vsocial.com/video/?d=1185

[BoarSpear]

Does anyone have any information on who was wiretapped? Not specific people, mind you, but an idea as to whether or not these were people we'd been watching for some time?

Im not sure who they wire tapped but just look at how the patriot act powers were FIRST used Its first use was to close strip clubs in Tampa fl and Las vegas.... then it was used to prosecute 5 canadian pot heads who brought weed and money into the USA, the patriot act was used to get them on money laundering....it was also used to acess financial records to catch people who pirated the TV show Stargate...NONE of that was terrorism...those were just people the justice dept had a hard on for that the patriot act could be used to "get".....so much for it being an anti terror act....its just another excuse to turn america into AmeriKa. But im sure they wont wiretapp anyone who simply opposes the current administrations plans

[Hardball]

It isnt "just" wiretapps They also use scare tactics to keep people from demonstrating in the first place...they are using police state tactics to suppress your freedom of speech.

Watch this report, its in 3 segments, then tell me the govt isnt out of hand...
Before its over hoover is gonna look like a pretty good guy.

http://www.vsocial.com/video/?d=1185

You know they probably monitor the internet and this site also. Aren't you worried about getting on the Anti-Government list? Have you read George Orwell's 1984? Have you seen enemy of the state? You don't seem to be worried about speaking out. A lot of your post come off this way. What's your secret? How do you get away with being such an anti-government radical?