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There are petitions circulating around Tucson right now, trying to get a new initiative on the ballot that would propose to create a lottery for voters. Basically, money taken out of the state lottery fund would be used, and anybody that voted would get a chance to win the prize. I was approached by one of those guys with clipboards trying to get signatures, and my response was, "Isn't voting the prize?" He said that's nice in theory but isn't working so well, turnout is low, etc. My gut response was to tell him that people that need a prize in order to vote don't deserve to have a say, to which he frowned and walked away. But I've been thinking about this all day, about people who don't vote, reasons they don't vote, feeling like one vote can't make a difference (but buying a lottery ticket can!), etc. It really got me thinking. I know that in Australia people are REQUIRED to vote, get FINED if they don't vote. This proposal, if passed, would be PAYING people to vote. I mean isn't it sad that you'd have to PAY people to vote? Wondering if anybody disagrees on this or if there's anything I haven't thought of.
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Service guarentees Citizenship!
A great line from a great movie, but unfortunately not a reality yet. In response to your post Tree I find myself torn. Although, I too believe that the incentive for voting should be the delight in taking part in a political process to which you find yourself inspired. I would not want someone to vote if they were not informed on the issues. Voting in ignorance isn't voting at all it's an act of trendy popularism which makes the entire process a joke as well as the people that made it so. I will say that incentivizing voting through a lottery is an interesting idea, a pipe dream sure, but no more so then an actual lottery. Who knows what it will take to get the MTV generation involved with the process they only want to exploit in order to appease the 2% for fear of making them feel bad that they are the 2%. I believe that we should obligate ourselves to vote so that the entire idea won't become a desperate necesity when it's most important. In the end I see voting as a service that only those who are in the service and those who have served should be allowed to exercise. It is ridiculous to me that those who have never served be able to dictate what those in the service can do in order to best serve the needs of the nation. I'll save that for another conversation though. -
So Bush (awol) and Cheney (5 deferments in Vietnam) could't vote Rayl?
sounds good to me!Comment
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I see what you mean. Putting in your time to earn your place.Originally posted by RaylComment
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Ignorance is a shame.
One thing that bothers me is when someone like Gonzo appears to be quotes unsubstantiated headlines instead of looking a little deaper into the facts. But, let's say your right I would love to see what ever it is that you base your facts upon before I entertain this conversation any further.Comment
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Rayl, its a well known fact that Cheney has 5 yes thats right folks count em'
5 deferments during Vietnam. I guess he had better things to do like get 2 DWI's. As for the Bush Guard crap I'm not gonna whip a dead horse, as I am sure most people here have long made up their minds.
I am not going to present facts on deferments here simply because Id rather you do your own digging on the subject so I wont be flamed for directing you to any particular websites, but I think you'd find Tom Delay's crack on why he didnt join the service during Vietnam pathetic. I am confident you'll find enough people in the current administration, who dodged the war then and question the patriotism of dissenters now, and its disgusting. btw if you get a chance look up Rush Limbaugh's reason for not serving what a joke.
Unless I misunderstood your post Rayl when u said "service" you were implying military service correct? what implications would this have for the current administration? I wonder what the total deferment count would be on Bush admin? or the dem side (I am by no means a supporter of the so called left) so tell me what you can see from whats available Rayl, am I making this crap up? or is the new "royalty" of America here to stay?Comment
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As far as the 5 deferments in Mr. Cheney case I was a little uninformed. So I did a little digging and the only thing I could find was so educational relatated stuff i.e. he was in college and there for wasn't subjected to the draft. Is this what you're refering to if so I'll comment from your reply. Alcohol and anything especially driving is a bad idea I won't argue there, but some things have to be able to be put behind you at some point in time. Again that's an entirely different debate that would require it's own forum of which we can go into if you would like. Bush's guard service is an interesting subject, but what aspect of it you want to coment on I don't know. I certainly hope it's not that he was in the guard and not on active duty or something like that or that he neglected to go to Viet Nam because of it. Because that would make me lower my opinion of you, and after your last post (so elegant) that would just be a shame. As far as your sources go I would like to see them and if they are valid and credible what fear should you have of showing them to the world so that we can finally put an end to this topic cause i promise you Im just as tired of explaining my side as you must be yours. Admittedly, I know little of Mr. Delay's exploits only that appears to be in pretty deep water and quite possibly deservingly so. I've studied little on the topic of Delay and know only that for some reason I've never really trusted him. He always seemed to have some sort of creepy demeanor to him or some flaw in his character that I personally didn't understand. It's true that I meant military when I said service, but that wouldn't be a reality unless there was a cue and the veterans took over which I'm opposed to. So in the perfect world of Rayl it would have to be a politically motivated migration of an idea in which case to todays standards by service I mean those who work within the system for the common good of the system. By that I don't mean the mail boy, but instead people like law enforcement and fire fighters would would meet might definition of service and be welcome within the government of Rayl. Services like these should be a requirement in order to move into the career field of government and holding office period. And, yes Mr. Kerry is welcome in my world of government no matter how full of crap I believe him to be. Speaking of would you suggest that Mr. Kerry be a better alternative to the current administration or maybe Mr. Dean hopefully you don't think that Mr. Gore was the better choice. My choice of them all would have been Mr. Lieberman if would have voted for a Democrat eventhough he ran with Mr. Gore in 2000 only to be stabbed in the back by him in 2004. Politically you seem to be very confused, but I'm enjoying our time together so do come back with some of your sources so that we may continue. Oh and please, don't claim that you're not from the land of the left because you're just trying to insult our intelligence.Comment
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Rayl, never was my intention to come off as insulting, your reply was well written and didnt resort to name calling and for that i give you multiple kudos because its a rarity on this anonymous experiment we have going here.
I vote for Nader again simply to exercise my right in choosing a party outside of the established two-headed snake running our country (I wish Jesse Ventura would've run!).
I wanted to vote for Gen Wesley Clark, but the way his own party turned on him like curs disgusted me and made me ashamed that this is what our political system has degenerated to.
I would have voted for McCain had he survived the same kind of backstabbing from his own party, I dont know if he will make a try of it again but If he does ill gladly vote for him.
I believe that either of these honorable men would have had a chance in wresting control of our country back from speacil intrest groups.
I think that if you have the time it would be better to research the deferment issue on your own, plus like I stated before I am not an ultra-lefty and I dont support them.
but I will supply links if you insist here, Is a well documented source.
and by well documented I mean that they link to actual usgov records.
AND include REP and DEMS who did and did not serve.Comment
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