The Warrior’s Code

[jubaji]

And now TTExcrement will copy and paste ten more pages of someone else's words...


...and KOTF will use it as an excuse for self-aggrandizement.

[TTEscrima]

And very politically correct too, but it doesn't represent the reality of it.

I understand very well why this would be the Navy's stance, but it is more of a public relations issue than a tactcial one. You cannot be tactically sound and politically correct at the same time, they are two polar opposites.

How one would want folks to behave as in the 'ideal' and what they really do are not always the same thing. Or in otherwords it is closer to the Tabula Rasa model than one would think...the lab where the conditiones are tightily controlled vs. the real world where many unkown variables and chaotic properites remain in play.

BS, the reality is when you break those rules you are a criminal and the proper terminology for that is War crimes. War crimes is more than a public relations stumbling block it's a festering problem that feeds the fires of the enemies will to fight and ability to recruit. The courses taught at the Naval Academy and other Military institutions that are based upon honor are not just PR campaigns and you're doing the institutions and your nation a disservice when you say otherwise. Claiming the Honor codes and such from the Naval Academy are for public relations sounds like something an Al qaeda spokesman would say, not a supporter of the US Military.

[kingoftheforest]

The fallen and the fake

Why all the romance over it? There is nothing romantic about it.

KOTF,

Not to diminish anything that anyone did or may do in the future, and certainly those folks you described would meet the criteria.

My .02

I don’t think there is really a right or wrong answer here because at the end of the day a warrior is whatever you perceive him to be.

In general I agree that a ‘warrior’ is not a criminal as in killing for the lust of killing, though he may lust to kill, he controls such urges unless killing is warranted.

But I also think folks are being to ‘idealistic’. A Warrior maybe all those things on the list, he may even be more, or less. What one has to remember is that we are talking about humans and the human condition as complex and as good and as bad as it is. The reality is a warrior may not always be what you want him to be.

He may do it out of a sense of duty or honor or something else but regardless of one’s motivations or any other thing on that list, in practical terms a warrior is a person who strives to do good as in he knows right and wrong and has a conscience but he also may fight daily with his inner demons and he may even titter on the ragged edge of crossing over, and at times he may. But in spite of all that when the moment of truth comes he is a thug, brutal and violent, willing to pull the trigger, willing to claw and cheat his way out of hell for himself and for the guy next to him, and that’s all he is.

He may have a rugged exterior with a heart as hard as diamonds or he may be a mild mannered loving husband and father but what they both have in common is that they quietly keep watch for hazards and predators. Secretly, although he may never admit it, he hopes to come across one, and in that moment the warrior is the guy who thugs on the thug. In fact, he is closer to being a thug than most are comfortable in believing.

It is a dirty business no matter how you perceive it to be, and it is no place for knights in shining armor hollyweird romance stereotype non-sense. But whatever they are let’s just be glad we have them.

Somebody has been reading way to many Dragonlance novels apparently.






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If something to this effect was posted in a place where real life verified warriors posted...say SOCNET.com it would be laughed off as something from a poser. How do I know? Because I've seen it.





BTW MOS97B R.I.P. your career at SOCNET.com was short and sweet and it gave us lots of laughs before you were laughed off and banned.

[TTEscrima]

BTW it isn't just the Navy who has a strict Honor Code, ever heard of WEST POINT? Clearly the belief that Honor is an essential ingredient of Warriorship is common among those tasked with forging this Nations finest warriors.

WEST POINT HONOR SYSTEM

ITS OBJECTIVES AND PROCEDURES

By

MAJOR GENERAL MAXWELL D. TAYLOR
Superintendent, U. S. Military Academy

THE HONOR SYSTEM AT WEST POINT




The Honor System at West Point is the outgrowth of many years of development and experience. The need for such a system is implicit in the mission of the Military Academy to develop military leaders. These leaders must have strength of character as well as intellectual and physical vigor. Secretary of War Newton D. Baker eloquently phrased the obligation of the Military Academy to develop character in the following words:

"The purpose of West Point, therefore, is not to act as a glorified drill sergeant but to lay the foundation upon which a career in growth of military knowledge can be based and to accompany it by two indispensable additions; first, such a general education as educated men find necessary for intelligent intercourse with one another; and second, the inculcation of a set of virtues, admirable always; but indispensable in a soldier. Men may be inexact or even untruthful in ordinary matters and suffer as a consequence only the disesteem of their associates or the inconvenience of unfavorable litigation, but the inexact or untruthful soldier trifles with the lives of his fellow men and with the honor of his government, and it is therefore no matter of pride but rather a stern disciplinary necessity that makes West Point require of her students a character for trustworthiness that knows no evasions." Thus, the Honor System has its roots both in ethical considerations and in practical military necessity.

Honor, as it is understood by the Corps of Cadets, is a fundamental attribute of character. Honor is a virtue which implies loyalty and courage, truthfulness and self respect, justice and generosity. Its underlying principle is truth. It is not a complicated system of ethics, but merely "honest dealing and clean thinking." If a cadet is true in thought, word, and deed, there is no question about his meeting the standards of the Corps. On the other hand, quibbling, evasive statements, or the use of technicalities to conceal guilt are not tolerated at West Point.

The Honor System is effective at West Point because it has the loyal support of the authorities and of the Corps of Cadets. Graduates in retrospect regard it as one of the most important instruments in the shaping of their lives. General Eisenhower wrote to the present Superintendent,"I think that everyone familiar with West Point would instantly agree that the one thing that has set us definitely aside from every other school in the world is the fact that for a great number of years it has not only had an Honor System but that the System hers actually worked. This achievement is due to a number of reasons, but two of the most important ones are: first, that the authorities of West Point have consistently refused to take advantage of the Honor System to detect or discover minor violations of regulations; and second, that due to the continuity of the Corps and of the instructional staff we have succeeded early in the cadet's career in instilling in him a respect amounting to veneration for the Honor System. The Honor System as a feature of West Point seems to grow in importance with a graduate as the years secede until finally it becomes something which he is almost reluctant to talk about--it occupies a position in his mind akin to the virtue of his mother or his sister."

Noteworthy is the fact that for its success the Honor System depends more upon the Corps of Cadets than upon the supervision of the officers. Each year the cadets select from among themselves an Honor Committee for the purpose of interpreting the Honor System to the Corps of Cadets, explaining the principles upon which it is based, and bringing honor violations into the open in order to get rid of the guilty by constituted authority. Years ago, this group was a Vigilance Committee operating outside the law although frequently connived at by the authorities. In more recent times, the Honor Committee has been set up as a recognized and respected agency within the Corps of Cadets. Its procedures are codified, and its members are clothed with responsible authority. The work of the Honor Committee includes the indoctrination of the new cadets in the principles of the Honor Code and the transmission of these principles from class to class. It guards against the appearance of practices inconsistent with the Code. It inquires into irregularities of conduct, personal or official, which may have been committed by members of the Corps in violation of the principles of honor. In this latter respect, it acts as a grand jury reporting possible violations to the Commandant of Cadets. The Committee has no punitive powers, its functions being entirely investigative and advisory. If a cadet is reported to the Commandant by the Committee as possibly guilty of an honor violation, the Commandant then sets in motion all the official machinery to make a careful investigation of the facts. In the course of this investigation, the legal rights of the cadet are protected in accordance with the prescriptions of military law.


Although there are many cadet regulations which are related to the Honor System, the System has never outgrown its simple meaning--that a cadet will neither lie, cheat nor steal. A cadet's spoken or written word must always be acceptable without question. For their part, the authorities are careful not to use the Honor System to prevent the violation of regulations. Only if a cadet indicates by, a statement that he has complied or will comply with a particular regulation does the Honor System enter into consideration. When such a statement is made, it must, of course, be true. Sometimes a cadet is required to give a promise to comply with regulations in exchange for a privilege. For example, a cadet taking advantage of a dining privilege is required to sign his departure and return in a book. His signature means that he has taken no undue advantage of the privilege during his absence from barracks. If he is not willing to enter into this promise, he does not receive the privilege. Having once accepted the privilege, he is honor bound to report himself for any violation which he commits while absent from barracks.

In another situation, a cadet's simple word is taken in lieu of a complicated official report. For example, a cadet crossing a sentry post tells the sentry, "All right." "All right" in this case means that he has legitimate business for crossing the post and is not going to take undue advantage of the privilege. The phrase is elsewhere used in a variety of circumstances as an official formula with a specified meaning. For example, "All right" may be used as the oral report of a cadet who has just performed a specific duty, or as an indication that the authorized occupants of a room are present at a given inspection. The system of "All right" is carefully explained to all new cadets so that there can be no mistake about its significance.

It should be apparent from the foregoing explanation that the Honor System is not a means for disciplining the Corps of Cadets. If a cadet wishes to commit an offense against the regulations, he may take that chance. If he is caught, he is punished for a violation of restrictions without the Honor System becoming involved.


Cadets who are found guilty of violations of the Honor Code are either allowed to resign or required to stand trial by court-martial. Cases of trial are comparatively rare, for most erring cadets prefer to leave the Academy quietly. Records of all alleged violations in which the evidence does not warrant trial are kept in a confidential file as long as the cadet remains at the Academy. When he leaves, this file is destroyed.


The Honor System is an essential element in the character molding which goes on at the Military Academy. It is a vital influence in the day-to-day life of every cadet. Instances are constantly occurring which show how much the system means to the Corps. Cadets are constantly reporting themselves for unintentional violations of the Honor System. A cadet may be reported by one of his closest friends for an Honor violation because the men of the Corps feel that the Honor Code is bigger than any individual or any personal friendship. A few years ago a foreign cadet became involved in an honor violation and resigned. Three years later when his former class was approaching graduation at West Point, he returned at his own expense and called upon the Superintendent. He recalled the circumstances of his resignation, explaining that after leaving West Point he had meditated deeply upon his offense. As a form of reparation, he had decided to dedicate himself to the cause of developing in the schools of his own country standards of honor comparable to those at West Point. Becoming an instructor at his own nation's Military Academy, he founded an Honor System like the one he had known as a cadet. He came back to West Point to appear before the Honor Committee once more and to report upon his work abroad. This work, he hoped, would make amends for the offense that he had formerly committed against the standards of honor of West Point.


For all who have had contact with the Honor System at West Point, the influence of this way of life has been marked and lasting, and the devotion of the Corps of Cadets to the Honor System continues to be very real and deeply rooted.

WEST POINT HONOR SYSTEM

[TTEscrima]

If something to this effect was posted in a place where real life verified warriors posted...say SOCNET.com it would be laughed off as something from a poser. How do I know? Because I've seen it.





BTW MOS97B R.I.P. your career at SOCNET.com was short and sweet and it gave us lots of laughs before you were laughed off and banned.

You mean all 16 of his posts? LOL His first thread about psyops was locked and he was told he sounded like a poser, his second thread questioning CMA's in the Military got him banned that's why you don't see this nonsense on the forums that vett their members.

Whats even funnier to watch is when some pussbag who never served in the Military at all tries to comment on warriorship or war fighting, it's quickly pointed out they're the definition of a keyboard commando and told to STFU since they're blabbering about things they weren't actually man enough to do but want to voice an opinion on it anyway.

[darrianation]

Deleted Deleted

[TTEscrima]

We should always walk with honor but those lines are easily blurred when dealing with folks that don't hold those same values and have a gun to your head or worse, to your wif's head or your son or doughter. There is honor then ther is stupidity and eveil is ralrey overcome by stupidity. Yes, a Naval Officer (or army, etc) should be held to high standards no doubt but I think a more realistic definition of a warrior is,

a warrior doesn’t always make the right decisions or plays by the rules

That's YOUR definition of a warrior probably created so you can classify yourself a warrior the teachings of the two most respected Military institutions in the World disagree with you quite strongly, so does the Geneva Convention.

"War Crimes

WAR CRIMES are violations of the rules of war. These rules, which limit the type and extent of violence permissible in war, are partly laid down in written treaties (laws) and partly consist of unwritten customs.

There are at least four compelling reasons for the existence of rules of war. First, every belligerent has a selfish interest not to provoke reprisals from the enemy, and not to provoke neutrals to join the enemy. Second, wars, however bitter, are to usher in a new era of peace. Hence, reconciliation should not be made too difficult: yesterday's enemy may be needed as a friend tomorrow. Third, nations do not wish their armed forces to "get out of hand; for, as history has also shown, they may otherwise easily turn against their own government and conationals. Last, but not least, war has always been decried, for humanitarian and many other reasons; if wars cannot be prevented their cruelty and destructiveness must at least be limited, for the purpose of sheer self-preservation. For all of these reasons, the law of war is the oldest and one of the most important parts of international law. Especially since the Middle Ages, the rules of war--as well as the conditions under which it is lawful to start a war--have greatly occupied the attention of governments, jurists, and, indeed, military men.

Rules of War

The rules of war fall into several categories:Rules concerning the status of combatants. These determine whether or not a person has the right to engage in combat and other military activities. For example, professional and conscripted soldiers may kill enemy soldiers in battle, but neither an individual civilian nor a soldier disguised as a civilian may do so. Rules concerning the conduct of hostilities. These circumscribe the type and extent of damage and suffering that may be inflicted upon the people and territory of the enemy, the treatment of prisoners of war, and the like. Rules dealing with the behavior of the occupying power in occupied enemy territory. The longer a wartime occupation lasts (for example, in the war which ended in 1945, Japan occupied large parts of China for over a decade), the more important are these rules. Rules pertaining to such important matters as the rights and duties of the belligerents and their citizens toward neutral nations and their citizens, and to the behavior of the parties under a truce and during an armistice.

Offenses against any of these rules, whether established by treaties or by international custom, constitute war crimes."

GI -- World War II Commemoration


It's no accident that the highest possible Military Honor is called the Medal Of Honor. Think about that for minute before you try to convince us differently. It isn't called the Medal of Thuggery or the Medal of Rule breaking, although they do have something they put around your neck for those acts during war, a noose.

The Congressional Medal Of Honor - "Bravest of the Brave" The Nations Highest Military Honor

When you break the rules of war you aren't a Warrior or a hero, you're a criminal get that through your head. Both groups get something around their neck ones a Medal and ones a noose.

[jubaji]

The copy and pasting here is hard core!

[TTEscrima]

Here's a point to ponder, It's generally accepted that John McCain sold out POWS after Vietnam and he's roundly despised among Warriors for doing so.
However recently some highly decorated vets called him a traitor for accepting medical aid in exchange for information while he was a POW. Those vets had their posts removed and were warned that while they had served with Honor they had never been POWs so they had no experience on the subject and were talking out their ass because they had an agenda. Even among warriors who dislike McCain they manage to maintain their honor and dignity by realizing those who have not "been there done that" ought not talk smack about those who have. Neither second hand information from friends and family, nor the books and movies you've read give you the right to comment on something as serious as war and it's intricacies, if you haven't done it ALL your opinions on the subject are worthless "I would have" crap and fantasy from an armchair quarterback who didn't have the balls to actually participate in the endeavor. In closing, Honor is real, just not real common.

[Tom Yum]

Those vets had their posts removed and were warned that while they had served with Honor they had never been POWs so they had no experience on the subject and were talking out their ass because they had an agenda. Even among warriors who dislike McCain they manage to maintain their honor and dignity by realizing those who have not "been there done that" ought not talk smack about those who have. Neither second hand information from friends and family, nor the books and movies you've read give you the right to comment on something as serious as war and it's intricacies, if you haven't done it ALL your opinions on the subject are worthless "I would have" crap and fantasy from an armchair quarterback who didn't have the balls to actually participate in the endeavor. In closing, Honor is real, just not real common.

Quote-worthy. Thanks, TTE.

[TTEscrima]

Quote-worthy. Thanks, TTE.

No Sir, thank YOU for your service, I'm just an old Sea Dog, it's guys like you who carry the banner now, hold it high along with your head BRO.

[darrianation]

Deleted Deleted

[kingoftheforest]

Guys, I have obviously hit a chord here. That certainly was not my intent. I am simply speaking from my heart and my first hand experiences both with war and having many conversations on this very subject with close personal friends and colleagues who are of the been there done that crowed and not with those on internet forums where testosorone runs rampant and folks often abide the party line.

Though I severed in the military including the 1st Gulf war and in other capacities in other wars I can proudly say I have served with some of the bravest, brightest and even the inspirational.

I have never been a mainstream conformist –stay the party line kind of guy— but I take pride in my service both as a soldier and service to my fellow man.

But let me make myself perfectly clear, not all soldiers are warriors and not all warriors are soldiers, and some warriors have never been soldiers. Bravery, love, and a strong sense of justice is what drives the warrior. The warrior takes care of himself and his own rather that is his immediate family, a friend, or a loved one or his squad in the stymieing heat of the deserts of Iraq.

Make no mistake these are admirable qualities and the qualities we ‘idealize’ but there is more to what makes a warrior, there is his emotions, his strengths, his limitation, his demons, and angles and other immeasurable qualities.

All I am saying is that a warrior is also human who is subject to all the same human emotions, weaknesses, strengths, and temptations as anybody else. And though it is okay to ‘idealize’ him there is nothing romantic about war or killing the guy who just tried to car jack you. Killing even when warranted ‘is what it is’ and is NOT something to romanticize. Anyone who has killed especially repeatedly up close face to face will never romanticize it as such and in fact he thinks of it just the opposite.

And KOTF I hope you are not in some round about way trying to imply that “MOS97B” could possibly be me sense you put that reference in your post quoting me. Because I do not and never have posted over there at SOC.NET

I think I have said my peice here and i am soory I am not apart of the HOOYA crowd but i do take pride both in my own service as welll as the service of others.

No I wasn't saying that you are. Some of the comments in this thread just reminded me of MOS97B and I thought it would be a good laugh since there are a few members on here who know about it.

That's why I left the big space in the post.


I don't feel I need to post every separate sentence on here in a different post like some members so I can bump up my number of posts.


Of course I am sure some members just have their regular comments copied on notepad and them just paste them over.




You must of just read into something I didn't say.

[TTEscrima]

No I wasn't saying that you are. Some of the comments in this thread just reminded me of MOS97B and I thought it would be a good laugh since there are a few members on here who know about it.

INDEED, but this thread isn't the only one by any means. He was summed up nicely, Situational Awareness: 0% Stupidity: 100% and god knows I've noticed that here. It's quite interesting how differently threads here VS the ones that vett their membership play out. MOS97B getting ripped was nearly as funny as Gecko45 getting clowned. It's a shame they took down his "credentials" but if you read his introduction you'll still get a chuckle.

[kingoftheforest]

INDEED, but this thread isn't the only one by any means. It's quite interesting how differently threads here VS the ones that vett their membership play out. MOS97B getting ripped was nearly as funny as Gecko45 getting clowned. It's a shame they took down his "credentials" but if you read his introduction you'll still get a chuckle.

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