Boxing as a Self Defense Art

[danfaggella]

if your in a ring yeah, but if the guy and his buddies are about to beat you to the ground and stomp you into a coma, then you are moraly obligated to DEFEND YOURSELF however possable

[Uke]

I don't feel boxing is good as a self defense art. It's strikes are great in the ring, but as a whole the mindset, concepts and approach boxing takes isn't suited to keep you alive. I've said much of this on the BJJ topic, but it applies here as well, and so that I don't appear bias, I'm voicing that here as well.

A good defense art should teach:

Choking and choke escapes

Escapes from guard and mount positions as well as submission reversals

Locking techniques for arrest and controlling

Strategic footwork and why

Throws, rolls and falls

Pain tolerance

Blocking system that doesn't require strength, and leaves you in offensive positions.

Weapons and disarms

Smart Striking - Not macho striking that'll break your fist,toes or shin

Fluidity in striking, locking and throwing(also called flow)

Defense against western boxing

Boxing maybe does one of all of these requisites well, and that's defense against western boxing. Many of you think that a boxer could just throw some dirty tactics in and that would be enough, but it wouldn't. Boxers don't fight well in the clinch at all, and they sure don't have any weapon skills. Boxing don't grapple at all, and their footwork is for sport matches, not for getting the job done quickly, which is the objective of ANY self defense art. How would a boxer deal with low kuntao or muay thai kicks? He couldn't. He'd take them hoping to land one big punch.

Boxing strikes and slips are very effective, but only if you use them to stop an attacker, not jab him like your coasting through rounds. Everytime you jab someone in a street fight and you don't knock him out, all you did was push the man back far enough to reach for a weapon. That's not intelligent. Once you get in the CQ range, you don't give that up, or you'll have to work to get it back. And assuming that you do get it back, if your punching power isn't devastating, all you'll wind up doing is knocking the guy back again out of your CQ range.

The idea that most fights go to the ground comes from this scenario. When you tie a striker up, they begin to try to wrestle their way out of the clinch, because they're not equipped to fight at that range. In many boxing matches you'll see fighters wind up on the ground because they were wrestling themselves out of a clinch. And if you get a boxer on the ground and you're a grappler, he's done and you're in heaven.

Boxers would be very hurt if thrown, as they don't know how to fall. They can't even defend against a simple osoto gari once someone is in close enough. And if a throw is done properly, even osoto gari, and a boxer doesn't know how to slap out, his head won't be give any room to bounce, and will absorb the full brunt of the throw.

Most self defense arts don't advocate boxing strikes due to the fact that boxers tape their hands so that they don't break their wrists, and on the street you wouldn't have your hands taped. Mike Tyson almost broke his hand in his streetfight with Mitch Green. I believe he fractured it or a knuckle from the way it swole up, and he DID NOT even knock Green out. And this was back when Tyson was IRON MIKE TYSON ... one of the biggest punchers that boxing has ever seen. The one maxim of fighting is YOU WILL FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAINED, and boxing trains a fighter to rely on the protection of the wrapping and the glove. Without those, a boxer knows that his wrists and fists will not hold up, unless he gets in that one lucky shot. And luck favors the prepared. Once a boxer's main weapons(fists) are broken, he knows he doesn't stand much of a chance.

Boxing wouldn't prepare a man to escape being choked out, or even teach him how to chocke a man out.

It wouldn't teach him how to use a bottle. It wouldn't teach him how to wield a stick any further than using it like a baseball bat.

And if any of you have noticed, boxer's STRUGGLE in fights when just going up 5 or 6 pounds. Weight makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in boxing. A great fighter like Floyd Mayweather might get beat by a much lesser fighter like Fernando Vargas due to just weight and how his skills translate. Boxing is a sport with weight classes. And weight classes make opponents look like their skills are much more formidable than they really are. When Tito Trinidad is not training, he can blow up to about 185lbs. But will he ever fight as a cruiserweight? The answer is no, because he knows that he'd get knocked out. That's another knock against boxing and other sport fighting events like kickboxing and MMA. Making the weight is a BIG issue. Most self defense people arent making weight or losing pounds to fight. They learn how to fight at their current weight and be proficient from there. Boxers/Kickboxers/MMA all are at their best when they are in some unreal shape that it took months of preparation to get into. 99% of them don't walk around in that shape. It takes dieting, roadwork, tons of cardio and tons of calisthenics to get into the shape boxers get into for a fight.

Unless you are willing to maintain that top tier athletic shape all year long, then you shouldn't train that way for self defense because YOU FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAINED. Once you are out of shape and get into an altercation, you'll find that your wind isn't the same. Your reflexes are slower due to the weight. Your punches and kicks are slower. Your muscles will fatigue faster. Basically you won't be the same fighter with the same skills and attributes.

So when asking whether boxing is a good self defense system, I'd have to say no for the reasons above.

[Hardball]

I don't feel boxing is good as a self defense art. It's strikes are great in the ring, but as a whole the mindset, concepts and approach boxing takes isn't suited to keep you alive. I've said much of this on the BJJ topic, but it applies here as well, and so that I don't appear bias, I'm voicing that here as well.

A good defense art should teach:

Choking and choke escapes

Escapes from guard and mount positions as well as submission reversals

Locking techniques for arrest and controlling

Strategic footwork and why

Throws, rolls and falls

Pain tolerance

Blocking system that doesn't require strength, and leaves you in offensive positions.

Weapons and disarms

Smart Striking - Not macho striking that'll break your fist,toes or shin

Fluidity in striking, locking and throwing(also called flow)

Defense against western boxing

Boxing maybe does one of all of these requisites well, and that's defense against western boxing. Many of you think that a boxer could just throw some dirty tactics in and that would be enough, but it wouldn't. Boxers don't fight well in the clinch at all, and they sure don't have any weapon skills. Boxing don't grapple at all, and their footwork is for sport matches, not for getting the job done quickly, which is the objective of ANY self defense art. How would a boxer deal with low kuntao or muay thai kicks? He couldn't. He'd take them hoping to land one big punch.

Boxing strikes and slips are very effective, but only if you use them to stop an attacker, not jab him like your coasting through rounds. Everytime you jab someone in a street fight and you don't knock him out, all you did was push the man back far enough to reach for a weapon. That's not intelligent. Once you get in the CQ range, you don't give that up, or you'll have to work to get it back. And assuming that you do get it back, if your punching power isn't devastating, all you'll wind up doing is knocking the guy back again out of your CQ range.

The idea that most fights go to the ground comes from this scenario. When you tie a striker up, they begin to try to wrestle their way out of the clinch, because they're not equipped to fight at that range. In many boxing matches you'll see fighters wind up on the ground because they were wrestling themselves out of a clinch. And if you get a boxer on the ground and you're a grappler, he's done and you're in heaven.

Boxers would be very hurt if thrown, as they don't know how to fall. They can't even defend against a simple osoto gari once someone is in close enough. And if a throw is done properly, even osoto gari, and a boxer doesn't know how to slap out, his head won't be give any room to bounce, and will absorb the full brunt of the throw.

Most self defense arts don't advocate boxing strikes due to the fact that boxers tape their hands so that they don't break their wrists, and on the street you wouldn't have your hands taped. Mike Tyson almost broke his hand in his streetfight with Mitch Green. I believe he fractured it or a knuckle from the way it swole up, and he DID NOT even knock Green out. And this was back when Tyson was IRON MIKE TYSON ... one of the biggest punchers that boxing has ever seen. The one maxim of fighting is YOU WILL FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAINED, and boxing trains a fighter to rely on the protection of the wrapping and the glove. Without those, a boxer knows that his wrists and fists will not hold up, unless he gets in that one lucky shot. And luck favors the prepared. Once a boxer's main weapons(fists) are broken, he knows he doesn't stand much of a chance.

Boxing wouldn't prepare a man to escape being choked out, or even teach him how to chocke a man out.

It wouldn't teach him how to use a bottle. It wouldn't teach him how to wield a stick any further than using it like a baseball bat.

And if any of you have noticed, boxer's STRUGGLE in fights when just going up 5 or 6 pounds. Weight makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in boxing. A great fighter like Floyd Mayweather might get beat by a much lesser fighter like Fernando Vargas due to just weight and how his skills translate. Boxing is a sport with weight classes. And weight classes make opponents look like their skills are much more formidable than they really are. When Tito Trinidad is not training, he can blow up to about 185lbs. But will he ever fight as a cruiserweight? The answer is no, because he knows that he'd get knocked out. That's another knock against boxing and other sport fighting events like kickboxing and MMA. Making the weight is a BIG issue. Most self defense people arent making weight or losing pounds to fight. They learn how to fight at their current weight and be proficient from there. Boxers/Kickboxers/MMA all are at their best when they are in some unreal shape that it took months of preparation to get into. 99% of them don't walk around in that shape. It takes dieting, roadwork, tons of cardio and tons of calisthenics to get into the shape boxers get into for a fight.

Unless you are willing to maintain that top tier athletic shape all year long, then you shouldn't train that way for self defense because YOU FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAINED. Once you are out of shape and get into an altercation, you'll find that your wind isn't the same. Your reflexes are slower due to the weight. Your punches and kicks are slower. Your muscles will fatigue faster. Basically you won't be the same fighter with the same skills and attributes.

So when asking whether boxing is a good self defense system, I'd have to say no for the reasons above.

This reminds me of the early days of the UFC, there were a lot of boxers competing in those days. They sort of faded out over the years and now all you see is the complete fighters

[TerryV]

Most self defense arts don't advocate boxing strikes due to the fact that boxers tape their hands so that they don't break their wrists, and on the street you wouldn't have your hands taped. Mike Tyson almost broke his hand in his streetfight with Mitch Green. I believe he fractured it or a knuckle from the way it swole up, and he DID NOT even knock Green out. And this was back when Tyson was IRON MIKE TYSON ... one of the biggest punchers that boxing has ever seen. The one maxim of fighting is YOU WILL FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAINED, and boxing trains a fighter to rely on the protection of the wrapping and the glove. Without those, a boxer knows that his wrists and fists will not hold up, unless he gets in that one lucky shot. And luck favors the prepared. Once a boxer's main weapons(fists) are broken, he knows he doesn't stand much of a chance.

That’s pretty funny! Did you know that after Mike hit him with that one punch that Green took off running, his eye was MESSED UP big time? The typical boxer hits much harder than other classes because that’s all they are trained in. The typical boxer also comes from a life of street fighting and just plain ole roughness, were as other classes typically have grown up under better conditions. This is one of the reasons you see so many great boxers who came from under privileged homes. They were not able to pay for monthly fees at the local Martial Arts Studio. The old saying is true, "A hungry dog will hut much better than a full dog".

This is why Mike Tyson never made a good comeback. If he would have gotten out of prison with NO money he would have hit the gym and worked much harder than he did. But Don "DUMB ASS KING" had to give him millions right up front as soon as he got out of the joint.

I have total respect for other classes, like I said before if I had to do it all over again I wish that I had spent my 18 years in a good grappling art. I love boxing and will keep teaching the art until I die. I teach to inner-city kids and adults mostly and I have never changed a boxer to teach them. With amature boxing a good coach will not charge his students. From time to time I teach "White Collar Boxing" to a bunch of Doctors, Lawyers and Businessmen at a $100 a head, it’s a good money maker. These guys want to learn how to box but dont want to get hit. This is kind of funny when you think about it. I have a friend in Dallas who makes $10,000 a month doing this.

For boxing to be used as self-defense it must be used in a form of street fighting.

[Kotaro]

The thing is, most people you encounter on the street are not insane ninja masters, so having boxing skills would still give you a HUGE advantage over 95% of the population. Sure, other martial art forms may be better, I'm just saying that most people dont have a form, period; so boxing is still good for self defense.

[danfaggella]

yes, but having just as much skill in something like krav maga, that trains for real street situations with weapons and multiple attackers, and uses strikes of all kinds and lots of grappling. this kind of a complete system is better used out of the ring, which is where fights occur.

[Kotaro]

I agree completely. I'm just saying that boxing, as a competitive sport , also gives a person some real world self-defense benefits. You are at once an athlete and a better street fighter than your average person, rather than just a really good street fighter. Sweet.

[Uke]

How can you say 95% of the population? What are we speaking about ...women, children and the elderly? That attitude right there will get people killed. If you rely on thinking that the probability will play into you favor you'll get dusted off. You don't and I don't know who knows what. I wouldn't assume that.

Contrary to what alot of people believe, some of the best fighters and martial artists don't look like it. They're not outright muscle bound, bulging bodybuilders who can fight. And like I said above, most of the boxers you see are training as professional athletes. All they do is train, they fight at an unnatural weight that they are rarely in. So if you are only in boxing shape for 2 fights a year, that's not alot in comparison to your walk-around weight.

On the street, boxing is the most common art you'll encounter in a mugging or a streetfight though. I agree with Terry V on that totally. Boxing is what's readily available to the poor, just like basketball.

[Kotaro]

Dude, think logically here. I do not think boxing is "cooler" or better than any other martial art form. I just said that if you have boxing skill, which takes time to develop, you will have an advantage in a street fight over 95% of the population. The figure is probably higher than that but I don't really know! Most people do not know the first thing about trained fighting! If you don't know that than I guess I can't even argue with you because you exist in a separate reality from me.

[georgie]

boxers are better conditioned than 99% of the "skilled martial artists" out there. dont even try to argue that. conditioning goes a long long way in a fight.....sure its only a 20 sec fight but youll breathe like an asthmatic if your not in shape. boxers also have SUPERIOR defensive footwork....they fight toe to toe and can take twice the punch of some blow job jiujitsu martial artist whos so used to fighting in a controlled arena that multiple opponents would send him to intensive care unit. i would say the vast majority of fights are decided by strikes and there is no way in hell any martial art can hit with the kind of speed and force of boxing . as for the UFC fights....they're CONTROLLED fights with rules and regulations . try that shit in a real street fight and you will lose. put me in a choke and i'll bite at least half a pound of your flesh away trying to get out.... next thing you know you got my STD . be smart and stay off the ground AT ALL COSTS. kicking above the waist is just plain stupid on an icy sidewalk so kickboxers are shit out of luck cuz they dont box near as well as a stand up boxer. use your head here ......wrestling or judo is a great compliment(see other thread) to boxing . how many peeps die in these UFC fights? none. and how many boxers die in matches? lots. its that tough. and ya mike broke his hand but you obviously didnt see green's eye. he looked like someone hit him repeatedly with a bat. and all mike did was hit him once . if i could pick one and one only martial art for STREETFIGHTING self defense it would undoubtably be western boxing.

[Tom Yum]

I have total respect for other classes, like I said before if I had to do it all over again I wish that I had spent my 18 years in a good grappling art. I love boxing and will keep teaching the art until I die. I teach to inner-city kids and adults mostly and I have never changed a boxer to teach them. With amature boxing a good coach will not charge his students.

I like your style. One of the things I admire about note worthy boxing coaches in general is their ability to get in your head, get you fired up and their general concern about their students lives.

On top of that, I like how boxing coaches are able to come up with clever and sometimes challenging drills to keep fundamentals tight, work on weaknesses or simply watching you spar and give you advice.

I am very appreciative of the coach-boxer relationship.

Back to the message, I think boxing is a great art for general self-defense.

[Memnoch1207]

A good defense art should teach:

1. Choking and choke escapes - BJJ

2. Escapes from guard and mount positions as well as submission reversals - BJJ

3. Locking techniques for arrest and controlling - BJJ, Judo

4. Strategic footwork and why - Boxing, Judo

5. Throws, rolls and falls - Judo

6. Pain tolerance - Boxing

7. Blocking system that doesn't require strength, and leaves you in offensive positions. - BJJ, Judo, Boxing

8. Weapons and disarms - If your opponent has a weapon and you don't...RUN! This real life isn't hollywood. I have a nice 5 inch scar on my left arm from when I thought I was "Super Hollywood Karate Man" and tried to defend myself from a knife wielding opponent.

9. Smart Striking - Not macho striking that'll break your fist,toes or shin - BJJ, Judo, Boxing.

10. Fluidity in striking, locking and throwing(also called flow) - BJJ, Judo, Boxing

11. Defense against western boxing - Boxing

[Hardball]

If your opponent has a weapon and you don't...RUN! This real life isn't hollywood. I have a nice 5 inch scar on my left arm from when I thought I was "Super Hollywood Karate Man" and tried to defend myself from a knife wielding opponent.

You can't out run a bullet you can only take cover or use concealment. About the knife attack you can consider yourself successful cause you didn't bleed to death, get stabbed in a organ or lose your life to a cut to a main artery. You survived with a scar and you took a lot with you from that battle. I call that successful combat.

We all take a little with us from every battle; that's the nature of combat; survive and take something with you----FOR THE NEXT BATTLE.

[GonzoStyles]

Tom Yum I try and spring off the rear foot just as it lands, but I know what you mean about overcoming the rearward momentum, I practice stoping and sticking while moving backwards as much as possible when shadow boxing or I get the heavy bag moving with a front kick (teep) and try to take a couple steps backwards in time with it then stick it as it comes to the end of its arc before it swings back NOTE: be VERY CAREFUL when striking a moving heavy bag, do NOT punch a heavy bag that is still advancing towards you, you can injure your self easily. I have my bag hung outside on a large tree so it has plenty of room to swing and the arc of its swing is not nearly as steep as your normal gyms bag. with a 20'+ foot rope this is alot different than what most people are used to. I also have a small homemade sandbag approx 10 lbs that I hang head high and use to work on footwork and angles, if anyone has the chance to work on a bag hung high like this I recommend it 100%

[EmptyneSs]

When I read your club fight story, I can tell that you can punch just as hard shuffling backward as you can moving forward. May I ask how you perfect this? I can keep my power moving forward or sideways, but if I get drawn back I have to move sideways to generate full power again.

all u really need to do is throw the punch everytime u take a step back. theres a rythm to it that u should get while practicing combinations like jab/hook or jab/cross.whatever while walking backwards. our instructor had has doing boxing combinations while walking backwards a while back and i noticed theres a rythm to it and u will find the feeling very natural and easy once u get it. just start at one end of a wall and do combinations walking backwards. when u get to one end, just turn around and keep going. back in forth till u get it down. u should be able to execute every strike with full power and good form while moving backwards. however, backing up is a last resort thing. much better to just side step em or circle around if they are trying to back u up. this will also slow em down a bit, since they have to readjust for a moment. this can give u time to fire off a combination from an angle if your fast.