Wing Chun or Shaolin?

[Thai Bri]

If WC was so good, why would His Holiness take so much from so many other sources?

Because he started in WC by chance, and then developed by moving onto to much better things.

[Anti]

Thai bri,
Can't you read properly..I train in boxing and apply the concept of JeetKuneDo(Who is partially based on wing chun)..i never said i was a pure wing chun praticionner..even if i was..ur saying that if i pop into a gym with any thai boxer i will get beat..that is absurde.And let me explain why for you:

1st: Will i get beat to what?A full rules,no grappling no jumping ring fight? or a full contact everything-allowed-street fight?A fighter fights best in his environment and you know that.During a street fight to-the-dead nothing-to lose-fight the wing chun practicioner wont slap the thai boxer's hand to trap him but will try to palm strike him on the throat and the thai boxer will not hesitate to headbutt his oponent and to knee him in the groin.Do you understand my point?You cant anticipate the outcome of a fight only by basing yourself on the art.The training and the art he/she practices counts for alot..but not everything.

2nd: besides the environement,the fight depends mostly on the frame of mind of the fighter the day of the fight.I dont beleive the 2 fighters will be at their top shape and top mental state..BUT..even if they are.Consider my previous and my next argument.

3rd: It is not the art,it is the fighter expressing the art.Saying Martial Art A is more efficient and is better than Martial Art B is absurde.Although if you told me with ur 25 years wing chun/thai boxing experience and serious physical training you would beat my 4years boxing/JKD based ass..in a ring fight or even a street brawl..i would step back and think for a minute(what any intelligent person would do)with his long term experience and training thai bri might have a better chance of winning the fight.Then again i might get lucky that day and be in my top shape as well.But the odds being agaisnt me,since it is the physical condition,experience,mental state,knowledge of the art ur practicing,your size (which counts for less then the previous but still counts)..confidence AND THEM ALL TOGETHER ..then will i be able to evaluate my chances of winning.but you can never..i mean never anticipate at 100% the outcome of a fight.

I hope u read carefuly and will not reply something like muay thai is better anyway! or i will lose my nerve and leave this forum forever.For all thoses non-ignorant cultivated open minded martial artist reading the post i think u agree AT LEAST partially with me.So please thai bri,i know ur devoted to ur art but one day u might open up and find another art that suits u best..maybe not..and maybe wing chun doesnt work for you because you had bad intructors or a bad experience or whatever..but i say this to all martial artists again..It's not the art..arts cant fight since they are not concret..it is the artists expressing the art in his personal human way.

with all my respects..

Nicely put! I spose I am one of the more 'openminded' martial artists in this case. But, I dont think Thai Bri was yur main target. Your points were amazing, and a great summary of the situation.
Erm, Kudos
~Anti

[Oliver]

Ok...

...Thai Bri, I am going to Thailand for a couple of months this fall, and I have a friend who teaches Muay Thai there. I promise to attend classes and really give the art a chance, on one condition;
that you attend a seminar with Emin Boztepe.
During the seminar, do please volunteer any time he wishes to demonstrate defense against punches and/or kicks. If you manage to hit him even once,
I will admit Wing Tsun is the crappiest art on the face of this planet.
If not, perhaps your eyes will start to open up.

[Thai Bri]

Hi Oliver.

It is of no concern to me whether or not you give Thai Boxing "a chance." I am no longer a Thai Boxer, and do not espouse it as the best thing for self protection. But it was surely far better than Wing Chun.

As for Emin? I don't know whether I'd be able to hit him or not. But I do know that he's a top WC guy, but never fights any of the top Thai guys. Or top BJJ guys. Or top MMA guys.

But at least he took Cheungy up on his challenges all those years ago, so good luck to him (they still rolled around like drunken women though).

[BoarSpear]

But at least he took Cheungy up on his challenges all those years ago, so good luck to him (they still rolled around like drunken women though).

That was a pitiful display and looked like a schoolyard brawl...NOTHING like a fight between two supposed high level WC guys...or perhaps thats exactly what it was ...think about it...excuses about slippery shoes is crap...fights and SD situations occur at any time in all states of dress or undress if a "MASTER" of the system couldnt defend himself in his "slippery" kung fu shoes, what chance does an average martial artist have in a real world fight with obstacles and slippery environments

[gong fu]

it depends,

what shaolin temples are you near?,

i study shaolin gong fu, i have been away training but i am back now,

i suggest learning a form of shaolin gong fu, if you have access to good master that is.


horse stance is good starting point for chinese forms, do horse stance for 10 mins straight, untill you can do that dont do anything else.

peace.

[Oliver]

Perhaps...

...you do not care whether I give Muay Thai a chance or not, but I certainly do care about you giving Wing Tsun a chance.
That is why I think you ought to attend one of Emin's seminars.
You do not have to volunteer for anything, you will be amazed just seeing him in action. After all, it is the art itself that you critizise more than anything else, and I am willing to bet that one or two seminars with Emin would have you think differently.

But perhaps you think; "No, I wanna see him kick some ass in the UFC, that's what really counts".

I disagree.

In a real fight, the attacker sometimes really wants to kill you.
Not so in the UFC, where he is more likely to want a price.

In a real fight, your mind will tell you, this is it, I could die now.
Not so in the UFC, which is after all a sport.

In a real fight, your attacker will most likely be rid of all psychological barriers against using deadly attacks.
Not so in the UFC, where thousands are watching.

And the list could certainly go on.
Also, you have stated that WT as a style is inpractical.
That is why I referred to the fact that volunteers, regardless of skill level, can seldom manage to hit Emin at seminars, even when they are told to throw whatever technique they like. This must surely prove that Wing Tsun principles can indeed be used for self defense, must it not?

I would also like to comment on your suggestion that some WC-guy should go down to a Muay Thai gym and "spar" with them. Well, let's see now.
Gloves. Suspensoar. No gauging. No groin kicks. No Biu Jee-techniques.
That basically waters it down to taking turns punching and kicking each other.
I'd say the bigger and stronger guy will pretty much win easily.
Wing Chun is a martial art, not a sport.

By the way, if you want to read about real Wing Chun combat effectiveness, look around the internet for Wong Shun Leung.
There is plenty to read about his Gong Sau victories, and you can also find interviews with people (such as former student Ko Kin), who have witnessed many of them. I don't see why all of them would lie.

And one other thing;
would I be correct in assuming that you have been studying the
William Cheung-variety of Wing Chun, or a close equivalent?

[Thai Bri]

I studied the art under the lineage of Yip Chun, Yip Man's son. He taught Samuel Kwok, and he was the direct teacher of my own instructors.

I studied this system for 12 hard months. I got more benefit watching one Senshido video tape (yes, watching) than in the entire 12 months WC training.

I do not know, nor really care, what Emin Boztepe can do. I care what someone can train me to do. I am trying to develop myself, not find someone to worship.

I have seen many clips though, and opine that he often defends against highly telegraphed punches that "freeze" for him. Or poor takedown attempts by people who do not know how to take people down anyway, and are not really trying to.

As has been said. Cheung and Boztepe both had the opportunity to prove the effectiveness of their art, but they rolled around like lady mud wrestlers.

[Oliver]

Answer for Bri

Well, if you really wish to develop yourself as you write, the statement
"I care what someone can train me to do" reveals an attitude that is somewhat misplaced.

No one can really train you to do anything, they can only give you the tools necessary. The way to develop yourself is to work hard yourself.

I am sorry that you did not get anything out of 12 months training, but it's not fair to blame Wing Chun for that. After all, 12 months isn't that much anyway and if you want to be able to fight effectively in less time then maybe Wing Chun just is not for you.

The fight between Cheung and Boztepe was not about proving WC effectiveness, it was about proving a point to a loudmouth.
And Boztepe hardly knew any WT at that time, so he clearly could not have used it by then even if he would have tried.

When it comes to Boztepes qualities, do not trust clips. Go to a seminar.

[white devil]

please man..for the last time

Thai bri man why don't u just give up on it..u keep telling off wing chun again and again?..even though u were explained by tons of martial artists that it is indeed effective...!!

now effective for what?

-->ufc cage rumbles =probably not
-->in a boxing ring = no
-->muay thai arena = same

why?because with all the limitations WC practioners are not allowed to use their mastered technique to their full potential..thoses above are arena sports which happens to also be deadly martial arts at the same time. Unlike WC who is only a lethal martial art based on trapping and countering.(self defense)

-->in case somebody pulls out a gun = even if ur a shaolin monk-ninja-thai sumo-boxer who knows jiu-jitsu..u cant do sh!t...

--->Now, for self defense,against an average non-armed joe...even skilled in any martial art...ud be glad u know wing chun because it has proven it's effectiveness in self defense(and dont u dare say it hasnt because u know it has)..hit him with a pak sao,bil jee to the eye and run away(with his wallet).


Remember,it's better to know something you dont need than to need something you dont know..even if it's wing chun

now please..say that wing chun isnt better than thai boxing,we'll all say ur right and u can go to bed a happyer man..let's give it an exclamation mark and may this thread be closed forever! Amen

[Thai Bri]

Well, if you really wish to develop yourself as you write, the statement
"I care what someone can train me to do" reveals an attitude that is somewhat misplaced.

No one can really train you to do anything, they can only give you the tools necessary. The way to develop yourself is to work hard yourself.

I am sorry that you did not get anything out of 12 months training, but it's not fair to blame Wing Chun for that. After all, 12 months isn't that much anyway and if you want to be able to fight effectively in less time then maybe Wing Chun just is not for you.

The fight between Cheung and Boztepe was not about proving WC effectiveness, it was about proving a point to a loudmouth.
And Boztepe hardly knew any WT at that time, so he clearly could not have used it by then even if he would have tried.

When it comes to Boztepes qualities, do not trust clips. Go to a seminar.

That "no one trains you" line is just stupid semantics. A good trainer shows you tools, then shows you how to refine and, ultimately, apply them. Your talk is nonsense.

12 months isn't that much? I guess it isn't to the people who go all starry eyed at tales of how long it takes to "Master" this or that art - somehow thinking that the longer it takes, the better it must be. What nonsense. The opposite is true. The quicker it takes, the better it is.

Boztepe fought on behalf of Wing Tsun / Leung Ting (who he has now fallen out with. What a bunch of ego filled tarts). He represented WT, so in what way can you skewer things to say "he hardly knew any?" Or are you saying that he mud wrestled a top WC man, and then decided that a very similar art was for him? What nonsense.

In all your arguments are flawed to say the least. But I don't care. Carry on training the way you feel is best. Let me know how many years you'll devote to it before you progress onto something more real.

white devil - The original UFCs had no rules. The only WC representative weighed in at something ridiculous, like 350lbs or something. Hardly a representative of the WC ideal is he? No matter. He got no-where, even with all his super deadly knowledge.

It is, indeed, better to know something you don't need, rather than need something you don't know. But so what? How does it follow that WC will be that thing you need? The same argument can be used for Irish dancing. C'Mon folks! We'd better all learn it, because it is better to know something you don't need..... etc.

Lastly, apparently I "know" that WC has "proven" effectiveness in self defence. Maybe I have forgotten! So the floor is yours. Tell me about this proof. Tell us all.

[white devil]

...

dude..im not gonna spend any more time on this thread,u obviously have no respect for wing chun . so here it goes;wing chun and everything who looks like it is total crap!

i studied tkd enough to understand axe kicks arent of much help for certain situations, you just don't see me critisize it over and over again because it isnt flawless (actually no art is).

so,please..lets stop theorizing and analysing because i dont have the energy to re-type all of my previous arguments.

again,all martial arts have their strong and weak points...yes even ur precious muay thai isn't perfect

finaly,i admit that wing chun doesnt provide us with all the tools we need.. but what are thoses tools?--> that is to be the most complete unbeatable all around pound for pound fighter ain't it? but whoever u are..tell urself that there's somebody out there who can kick ur ass,no matter what discipline he trains in.

i chose western boxing because i just love it...as a sport. i mix it with my jkd and i'm ready to defend myself properly on the street.

as for ufc..no disrespect intended but they should just change their name to ''ground fighting contest''..and personnaly, i think..it is not as entertaining as a boxing or a muay thai bout.

[jubaji]

why?because with all the limitations WC practioners are not allowed to use their mastered technique to their full potential..thoses above are arena sports which happens to also be deadly martial arts at the same time. Unlike WC who is only a lethal martial art based on trapping and countering.(self defense)

This kind of crap is why these zombie threads never go away

[white devil]

well jubaji

well tell me jubaji, what's crappy bout that? wait,i dont care..whatever i might say about wing chun u or ur girlfriend thai bri are probably right so i'm just gonna leave this thread alone.

[jubaji]

well tell me jubaji, what's crappy bout that? .

First tell me how many people you've killed with your bare hands using your "lethal" art?