Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[Tameo]

Boxing is a sport has its rules and if you brake them you are disqualified. Wing Chun has no rules you can use pressure point strikes eye striking and techniques that a boxer doesnt know how to do. How can you compare the 2?

[Hot Sauce]

Well, thats stretching things a bit. Surely it is the other way round. Imagine I try to sell you a car made of bread. Silly example I know, but it proves a point. Do you have to buy it unless YOU prove it DOESN'T work? Or do I, as the seller, have to prove to you that it works.

The onus is on WC people to do the proving.

Having said that I think I've made a good case anyway. After all, I did dedicate a whole year of my life to it.

I see your point. Lets take your example, the seller proves to you that it works by driving it or let you testdrive it, if you like it and believe it suits you, you have to pay to buy it. So you have to go to the dojo and try it which you have done, but only at three schools from the same linage. You found out that it does not work but you havn't proved to us that it doesn't work. I am not saying it does work since I have no experience from the linage noir any of the instructors you have visited.

[Thai Bri]

Well, thats stretching things a bit. Surely it is the other way round. Imagine I try to sell you a car made of bread. Silly example I know, but it proves a point. Do you have to buy it unless YOU prove it DOESN'T work? Or do I, as the seller, have to prove to you that it works.

The onus is on WC people to do the proving.

Having said that I think I've made a good case anyway. After all, I did dedicate a whole year of my life to it.

[Hot Sauce]

Thai Bri,

Open another thread and we'll discuss wheater or not Wing Chun works. Nothing can save your ass, prove me wrong?

Besides it's you that have to show some proof that wc doesn't work cause you were the one who claimed that it was ineffective.

[Thai Bri]

Thanks for that, it was pretty interesting.

[bartjam]

I heard that Wing Chun and Wing Tsun is almost the same thing but there are a few differences. Can someone tell me which i should take and what the differences are?

WingTsun is what GM Leung Ting teaches. Leung Ting comes from Hong Kong and has been student of the late Yip Man (at least he claims so). The biggest WT federation is EWTO (European WingTsun Org.), which is famous for being a collection of McDojos (although there are good persons and skillful technicians).

Leung Ting interpretation differs from other Wing Chun schools especially in stances, steps and the way they perform Tan Sau/Bong Sau. Emphasis is on the "unmoveable elbow" during chi-sau and fighting. They also codified a sparring drill called Lat-Sau (which is not a traditional sparring - like old lat-sau was).
Leung Ting and his seniour student Keith Kernspecht claim to have adapted Wing Chun to modern days street-self-defense needs, yet forms, bows and pre-arranged sparring are important parts of their training programs.
In the late 80s/early 90s their organization has grown like no other in Europe, and many thought WT to be the end all and be all of MA and self-defense.
EWTO is, instead, in a crisis today. Many top guys left it (Boztepe, Reimers, Tassos among others), and what they offer is *almost* always a non-contact training, with loads of chi-sau and a little self-defence (normally performed without real contact nor pre-fight rituals or scenarios).
Still they claim to be unbeatable.

[Thai Bri]

Hot Sauce, I think you sound pretty desperate. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt for a minue, can you show me any verifiable evidence whatsoever that your WC or WT can save my ass in a fight? If you can I will eat my words and join the club.

Jun Fan - sorry man. I didn't want to name names. I have nothing against Kwok. I did think him a bit odd but nowhere near as odd as me. Some of those instructors were real nice guys. Though the first two I trained with were a prize pair of pricks!

Truce declared!

[Hot Sauce]

Yes I do. After all, like the man said, its' lineage can be traced back to Yip Man himself.

Well you are wrong then because all linages are different and there are other linages that doesn't come form Yip Man's Hong Kong Ving Tsun. Therefore you can't judge a whole style from one linage. And besides Yip Man had many students, and you can't expect that all of them completely understood the WC concepts.

[Jun Fan]

Well judging from what you told me, I'm not surprised you don't see much in Wing Chun. And I didn't mean that he can't regulate his intructors, (poor choice of wording on my part) I just mean that he can't randomly appear at their side if they're teaching below standard. I'll admit that Sifu is an unusual instructor himself, and some may hate his methods, but I'm not one of them.
All I'll say is that my experience has been of a realistic and practical system of self defence. If you don't then that's up to you, and I completely respect that. That's not fight anymore eh? Gimme a hug!

[Thai Bri]

Yes I do. After all, like the man said, its' lineage can be traced back to Yip Man himself.

[Hot Sauce]

Thai Bri
So you think you have the right to judge a whole style because you visisted three clubs from one of the many wing chun linages?

[Thai Bri]

He doesn't regulate his instructors? That is bad. Very bad........ That is shirking his responsibilities, and throwing his own professional reputation to the wind.

I had bad experiences in Wing Chun. I went to three different clubs, and found the same weaknesses in each. They were all under Sifu Kwok's umberella.

I was graded by Sifu Kwok. I jumped two grades at once at the first attempt. I was then asked (though, admittedly, not by him - but his instructors) to become an instructor. I'd been training about 4 months at this point. Pathetic.

I gave it more time. I even admit that there were concepts (like the redirecting of energy, rather than meeting it head on) that were of use. But this was all limited.

To my mind a good MMA or Reality Based fighter could use some WC to compliment his existing skills. But there is no way that it is a complete system on its own. It would be like trying to drive the shell of a car. But, of course, you also need a chassis, wheels and an engine. WC provided none of these.

You like it? You stick with it. I am happy for you. But all kinds of people read these forums, and my experiences are also going in the mix for them to decide which art they want to spend their time and hard earned money on.

[Jun Fan]

Well unfortunately Sam Kwok is not an omnipresent super being. He doesn't have the ability to regulate all his intructors like dogs
There's so much political bollox in Wing Chun, and so many offshoots, that some are crap some are good, but ultimately it depends on the quality of the intructor.
Don't judge a system or organisation from a few bad experiences....

[Thai Bri]

Guess who's organisation I trained in.

[Jun Fan]

I agree with entirely regarding a styles ability to promote competence quickly and the importance of few techniques.
However, I completely disagree that these factors apply to Wing Chun.

My instructor always says that Wing Chun can be effectively after a short period of study, and I have to say I agree. One of our new students managed to avoid a nasty beating from a bouncer by using basic parries after only 3 months training. I managed to put a basic arm bar on a drunken friend who got out or order. Coincidently, this was mainly due to the 'patta cake' training. In only 6 months I managed to react without any thought, and to be honest it kinda freaked me out.

Also, Wing Chun doesn't have a multitude of techniques. All the forms use basically the same techniques, just slightly different ways of executing them.
Self-defence wise, we learn at most 2 techniques for each situation.
Again, this is only my experience, and I'm sure that there are countless Wing Chun charlatans teaching bollocks, but luckily my Sifu is the real thing (Sifu Sam Kwok, 35 years training, taught my Yip Ching and Yip Chun).