Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[LittleDemon]

umm ok everybody chill. can i just verify calling a person sneaky aint racist racist would be calling a black person a niga or a chinese person a chink or a french person a frog but being called racist for calling the chinese sneaky??? i dont agree with what hes saying but hey i think you guys need to get the whole racist issue into perspective first and foremost!

[jubaji]

Yes, you are.

Ok, I'm a racist. I can tell you that Chinese people are very sneaky!!!

And I can tell you that you are a racist piece of crap. You wouldn't want to limit my freedom to express that idea, would you, you racist piece of crap?

[Michael Maison]

call it what you will

Ok, I'm a racist.

Guess what? Jews are cohesive, Italians are artistic, Scandanavians are reserved, Africans are rhythmically and spatially superior (not to mention more proponderant for fast-twitch musculature), Germans are meticulous, Orientals are diligent, American kids are lazy, etc. etc.

Thats the bad news. The good news is, over here in the free world, we are accustomed to saying what we will without reprehension or fear. I can tell you that Chinese people are very sneaky!!! Many people would read "sneaky" as shrewd, cunning, etc., but you chose to read into it a negative. Competely your problem, I don't march to the liberal bs where you go to church.

[chimpgimp]

I am a police officer in Manchester, UK. I have been in what many would call the Riot Squad. Our training is crap. Most officer training is, the world over. They have improved it a bit since I last went but we still, basically, have to learn systems that won't really hurt an aggressor and, as such, avoid costly law suits against our organisation.

I can prove that elements of Shukokai Karate, Thai Boxing and Ground grappling work in self defence, as I have used them myself to good effect many times. Here is the breakdown:-

Shukokai Karate - the Gyaku Tsuki Reverse Punch has felled many an opponent. I believe that 95% of the system is rubbish, but they did teach me to hit hard in a double hip motion.

Thai Boxing - grab and knee has taken people out for me. Down they went.

Grappling - Kesagatame always worked to hold someone down whilst colleagues arrived. I have done three years proper grappling training since using it, so would probably use other moves now if appropriate.

I find it amusing that you make a claim about what other police forces are doing, but want me to contact them. Why don't you, since you are making the claim?

I like to think I speak from experience, rather than theory.

I have used wing chun in the street it worked fine, so did karate, escrima, thai boxing, & boxing. Every art has something to offer and none has all the answers. For me Karate had the least answers but for others it's superb, what does that prove, that we are all different. We all have different builds, strengths, psychology etc. Find out what works for you and stop knocking what works for others.

I'm sure there are are plenty of wc fighters who would kick your ass, I'm sure you could kick plently of wc fighters asses , does it prove anything , no not really.

Why get into a slagging match.

[kcigam]

I've sparred with WT practitioners and received neither an eye jab nor groin kick. Maybe because they couldn't get passed the ol' "one-two" with kick to the mid thigh. HMMM! Good self defense, possibly; combative, doubtful. Would you happen to have videos of apples beating the crap out of oranges?

Well... to be honest, I wouldn't attempt eye jabs or groin kicks with people I spar with either... but maybe I'm just too nice

[Thai Bri]

Michael, I PM'd you back.

I remain unconvinced bud!

[jubaji]

....and anyone who truncates a response like you did to edit out half of a dependent clause is also close-minded.

I said, to repeat for your flea brain, that the statement was made by Chinese, which has little to do with how many Chinese people I do or do not know. So take your pandering and histrionics to some other crying liberal and if you can't assmilate or handle a complete thought, f* off.

Yeah, I somehow figured out your 'complex' message.

It is clear that you are too absurdly obtuse to comprehend the social dynamic involved in the statements you heard. The manner in which you reproduced those statements is inherently racist. Your inability or refusal to recognize this doesn't change that fact.

Idiot.

[Michael Maison]

Thai Bri,

I private messaged you my email address. If you respond, I'll give you some interesting info on TWC relative to some of your comments/questions.

You can then see for yourself it makes sense to you or not.

Later mate!

MM

[Michael Maison]

Racism is close minded

....and anyone who truncates a response like you did to edit out half of a dependent clause is also close-minded.

I said, to repeat for your flea brain, that the statement was made by Chinese, which has little to do with how many Chinese people I do or do not know. So take your pandering and histrionics to some other crying liberal and if you can't assmilate or handle a complete thought, f* off.

[jubaji]

Well, it may be racist

It is.


Don't bother telling me how many Chinese folks you know, it doesn't alter the fact.

[Michael Maison]

Well, it may be racist to you, but it's origin is from several sifu's I know who all happen to be.........you guessed it: Chinese.

Brit, good question; I'll try to reply later!!!!

MM

[T-3]

Yeah, there's a lot of controversy surrounding that... frankly I'm a skeptic too, but that's what he claims...

I completely agree with you that its a damn good system of self defense, but maybe not the best for a boxing match or another environment with rigid rules of combat. You have to check so much of your arsenal at the door, like the finger jabs and the kicks. Plus, if you've been training with chi sau for a while (as I imagine you have with 5.5 years of training) it become very hard to catch yourself from doing an 'illegal' move in an environment like that. An eye jab or a groin kick may be the best move in a self-defense situation but its not too kindly looked upon if the martial artists that spar WT practitioners end up blind or sterile after the fight. That's why I think there aren't too many videos of boxers fighting WT practitioners. It's like having apples and oranges beat the crap out of each other

I've sparred with WT practitioners and received neither an eye jab nor groin kick. Maybe because they couldn't get passed the ol' "one-two" with kick to the mid thigh. HMMM! Good self defense, possibly; combative, doubtful. Would you happen to have videos of apples beating the crap out of oranges?

[Thai Bri]

Lets not over react mate.......

Michael, I don't doubt your honesty and integrity. But ask yourself this. How many rice bowls do you have to fill over the years before the Master finally shows you how to do the style properly?

[jubaji]

The Chinese mentality is difficult to understand. Chinese people are very, very sneaky.

That is some foul, racist bullshit.

[Michael Maison]

Wing Chun

Brit,

I'm glad you acknowledge that you weren't able to master WC in a year's time. As far as why, I can only give you my understanding, which is going to be incomplete in that I nor anybody living today doesn't know exactly what Shaolin masters had in mind when they developed the system: It was developed as a distillation of martial arts WC, snake, etc, to learn how to fight against oppressors, using the most economical elements of different systems in a shorter time period (I've heard 5 years, full time). As far as these comments go:



>But is that because it is some fantastic, mysterious art that will give you >super human power of you devote your life to it.......... or is it just >inefficient?

>Personally I believe the latter. Try WW2 Combatives for example. You will >become a more effective fighter after 1 lesson, never mind 1 year!


This sounds more like rhetoric than an actual attempt to understand the phenomenology of Southern Chinese MA. I don't have time to engage in that, but if you're willing to speak intelligently, and I'm certain that you are emminently qualified to do so, I'm willing to talk and listen.


You also said:

>I learned enough to know that it was wasting my time. A year is a long >time. I trained a whole shit load of hours outside of class time too, and it >was bollox.

I would not dispute that you put in a long year, as you indicated, without much return. Perhaps your failure to learn what you felt you should was a function of the instructor, the particular form of WC (TWC v modified v all the other plethora of styles), or even perhaps that the real combative functional elements of the style(s) aren't manifested until well after the first year. These are but two of the myriad of possibilities.

Another consideration that I didn't talk about here, but deserves mentioning. I'm 100% certain that there are people in ALL of the respective martial arts who consititute the "whores" of the field or profession - those who exploit, bastardize, dilute, and otherwise commercialize what was once a para-sacred artform in the pursuit of the almighty dollar. These people shouldn't be regarded in the same universe as the Sifu's who teach for the sake of propegating the knowledge and the purity of the artform.


Finally:

>By the way, I really hate to doubt your word about the Dancing Sifu's. Why >not put me straight by giving us all one piece of actual evidence to prove >your point. Or are you just as full of shit as the style?

The Chinese mentality is difficult to understand. In order to be privy to some of the techniques they use, you have to be close to if not actual lineage of the respective masters. I am as close to my sifu as a beginning/intermediate (4th year student) can be, and yet he only divulges little pieces at a time. There are entire forms with hidden movements, that have two or more versions in order to conceal the "real" part of the form from "aliens"...... Chinese people are very, very sneaky.

You have to remember, a boxer would pose a threat (circular arch punches) to many forms of WC, but other forms of the styles have compensated, and other MA have developed parts of other styles to add more to there armamentarium. I think people get WAY too hung up on styles, and not individual aspects of a fighter. Thats kind of like picking out a piece of crummy classical music and indicting the whole genre.


MM