Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[kcigam]

Not only reasonable but logical. You can't take something like self defense on faith.

[Thai Bri]

Awwwwww! LittleDim One coming to my defence! I'm touched girl!

kcigam - you seem a decent sort. I am still pretty skeptical about WC. I want to see evidence of PRACTICE, not theory. Is that reasonable?

[kcigam]

I know that WT works because i can actually relate a lot of the theory of power control with my horse riding. I do classical dressage and it's about riding in harmony with the horse, the big difference with horse riding is that the horse's paces are all natural where as WT is compeltely alien to the human body.

Ive been riding for 15 years and training wt for 5 1/2/years no other martial art has appealed to me, im a very competitive person from my school days i competed in a lot of sports. Wing Tsun isn't trained for competition but self defence so for someone like me if it wasn't a bloody good system i shouldn't still be training it.

I don't believe your comment also that Leung - Ting was the only closed dorr student of Yip Man.

Yeah, there's a lot of controversy surrounding that... frankly I'm a skeptic too, but that's what he claims...

I completely agree with you that its a damn good system of self defense, but maybe not the best for a boxing match or another environment with rigid rules of combat. You have to check so much of your arsenal at the door, like the finger jabs and the kicks. Plus, if you've been training with chi sau for a while (as I imagine you have with 5.5 years of training) it become very hard to catch yourself from doing an 'illegal' move in an environment like that. An eye jab or a groin kick may be the best move in a self-defense situation but its not too kindly looked upon if the martial artists that spar WT practitioners end up blind or sterile after the fight. That's why I think there aren't too many videos of boxers fighting WT practitioners. It's like having apples and oranges beat the crap out of each other

[LittleDemon]

[QUOTE=Michael Maison]Some neophyte studies WC for one year and then dabbles in a bunch of other styles. What is obvious is that he has become a kindergartner in several schools, and a master of nothing.

What pity.....because he has rigid vertical stances, he thinks everybody moves like that. I know WC sifu's who DANCE around boxers.....

HEY Thai Bri believes i will succeed in my WT training so it shows that maybe it's not for him but don't aptronise him for being honest least the guy tried ait and for a year as well most people i know who get fed up with it dont even last that long. It's a system that is a lifelong commitment like horse riding, ive been horse riding 15 years and im stilla novice, Thai Bri obviously is going to look for something quick to learn and thats effective because he wishes to protect his family, so next time i would think before OPENING YOUR BIG FAT UGLY MOUTH

[LittleDemon]

I know that WT works because i can actually relate a lot of the theory of power control with my horse riding. I do classical dressage and it's about riding in harmony with the horse, the big difference with horse riding is that the horse's paces are all natural where as WT is compeltely alien to the human body.

Ive been riding for 15 years and training wt for 5 1/2/years no other martial art has appealed to me, im a very competitive person from my school days i competed in a lot of sports. Wing Tsun isn't trained for competition but self defence so for someone like me if it wasn't a bloody good system i shouldn't still be training it.

I don't believe your comment also that Leung - Ting was the only closed dorr student of Yip Man.

[kcigam]

I learned enough to know that it was wasting my time. A year is a long time. I trained a whole shit load of hours outside of class time too, and it was bollox.

I hate to say this, but I think you just had a bad instructor.

But I do agree that there are certain things in boxing that wing tsun would have a lot of trouble dealing with, like the fast straight jabs and the quick footwork.

But the reason you don't see boxers and WT students squaring up against each other and video taping it is that they have nothing to do with each other. WT and all of its variations are purely street defense styles. there are groin kicks, eye jabs, throat jabs, etc... boxing is a sport with rigid rules about what's allowed. and what's not. If you were for some reason to put the together in the ring, and you told the wing tsun guy to only use his hands and not throw rabbit punches etc... then of course the boxer would destroy him, but put a boxer in the street where anything goes and he wouldn't see the kick to the balls coming, nor would he be able to recover from a series of chain punches or would he know what to do when the wt guy is sticking to him like glue and redirecting his punches while throwing his own. If a wt guy was to fight a boxer, it would probably be in the streets and it probably wouldn't be recorded on ESPN.

[kcigam]

The problem might lie in the particular schools cirriculum; if all you do is practice forms and sticky hands, your not really using wing chun for fight training.

That's true, but at the beginning levels you have to practise the forms to get your body used to the movements... wing tsun's strikes and movements are very different from most martial arts, like where the power of the strikes come from and how the weight is distributed when moving.

Sticky hands only comes at higher levels and by then, you've been through a good deal of lat sau (sparring) and should be able to handle a number of fight situations using wing tsun moves, so sticky hands is more of an extension of the training for real life (to develop sensitivity and reflexes); it is not in and of itself a self-defense method.

If your partner is throwing vertical fist straight punches at you all the time, how will your defense hold up against someone throwing harder punches? or Punch combinations?

If it's one thing you're trained for in wing tsun (in a good school anyway) it's handling variation. Most training involves combinations and both strong and soft punches. Its only at the beginning levels that you're taught "handle this with this" and that very quickly changes once the student's body has become accustomed to wing tsun's way of movement.

other fighters and martial artists don't stop striking if one of their techniques is blocked or missed and its not like they throw one technique, stop, then throw another unless they are trying to set you up.

That's true too, and that's why wing tsun's ideology is the way that it is. One of it's principles is not to wait for the attack to come so you're not waiting to react to your opponents attacks only to get hit when you make a bad call. And sticky hands trains you to react properly and quickly to them as they come, and attack at the same time. If you've ever sparred with a good wt practitioner, you know that it's a very frustrating thing because you're constantly on the defense.

I don't think that wt techniques will defend against every attacker, because the better-skilled fighter will most likely win, but when it comes to the situations described above, wt pretty much deals with all of those things at the fundamental level.

[kcigam]

I've studied WingTsun and trained with students of Wing Chun and there are subtle differences, like

weight distribution when turning (WC: centre of balance doesn't move, WT: centre of balance shifts with the turn) and

the application of force in some techniques (e.g. WC: tan sau is more of a block, WT: tan sau is more along the centreline and both a deflection and an offensive move simultaneously, although i've seen modified WC styles where this is also true)..

there are other differences but the roots and many techniques are basically the same

[guy incognito]

I think the problem with Wing chun is the amount of charlatans in the style. I think the problem is compounded by the fact that the genuine practisioners hold back so much from their students for fear of them branching off(How many people claim to teach the "real wing chun"?)
. The more that gets held back the worse the art becomes and before you know it everyone is claiming theirs is the genuine article and that they have a
better system than the other brand of WC. This branding of WC has led to its decline by everyone claiming to teach the true art. Constant
bickering between factions has resulted in a of a lack of credability of the sytle as a whole.

[Tom Yum]

I think wing chun could be a usefull style. Most people on the street aren't trained martial artists, so you have somewhat of an advantage.

The low, fast snap kicks aimed seem usefull as do the palm, thrusting fingers and elbow techniques. Wingchun has something to offer in terms of empty hand techniques without gloves - parrying, trapping and different types of hand strikes.

The problem might lie in the particular schools cirriculum; if all you do is practice forms and sticky hands, your not really using wing chun for fight training.

Why won't wingchun guys train with fighters from other styles, using wing chun? If your partner is throwing vertical fist straight punches at you all the time, how will your defense hold up against someone throwing harder punches? or Punch combinations?

other fighters and martial artists don't stop striking if one of their techniques is blocked or missed and its not like they throw one technique, stop, then throw another unless they are trying to set you up.

With the advent of MMA gloves and those new plastic face shields, WC guys should be sparring full contact!

[Thai Bri]

Thanks Michael.

You're right of course. It takes far longer than 1 year to make Wing Chun work. But is that because it is some fantastic, mysterious art that will give you super human power of you devote your life to it.......... or is it just inefficient?

Personally I believe the latter. Try WW2 Combatives for example. You will become a more effective fighter after 1 lesson, never mind 1 year!

I learned enough to know that it was wasting my time. A year is a long time. I trained a whole shit load of hours outside of class time too, and it was bollox.

By the way, I really hate to doubt your word about the Dancing Sifu's. Why not put me straight by giving us all one piece of actual evidence to prove your point. Or are you just as full of shit as the style?

Thanks mate!

[jubaji]

What pity.....because he has rigid vertical stances, he thinks everybody moves like that. I know WC sifu's who DANCE around boxers.....

Are they, y'know, 'special' WC sifu's?

[Michael Maison]

God, what a loser.

Some neophyte studies WC for one year and then dabbles in a bunch of other styles. What is obvious is that he has become a kindergartner in several schools, and a master of nothing.

What pity.....because he has rigid vertical stances, he thinks everybody moves like that. I know WC sifu's who DANCE around boxers.....

Who listens to you.......your a kindergartner????????

You patronising twat. I have oopened my mind. Thats why I studied Wing Chun for a year. It was after that time that I opined that it hadn't got enough effective training methods to make it wirth my while. I have studied Karate, different forms of Jiu Jitsu, Thai Boxing, JKD, Wing Chin, Taiho Ryu Jitsu, Combatives and other reality based sysems. You talk in theory. I talk from practice.

There is no way the rigid vertical stances of the WC could cope with the fluid and powerful two handed onslaught from a Weestern boxer. WC trains to defend against WC. That is only one of their fundamental training weaknesses.

WC is one of those arts that wins "secret" competitions. Big claims with no verification. Boxers do it for real.

And whats this about "all seven" of your weapons? If you're talking the parts of our body you can strike with, then there is a few more than seven. Yes, boxers only train the two, and the system has inherent weaknesses because of it. But they are not weaknesses that patta-cake play boys can exploit.

Take you WC into any boxing gym, and tell the instructor how you'd easily defeat his fighters with your WC. But phone an ambulance first, as within the first 2 minutes you'll probably need one.

[Thai Bri]

I just luuuuuuuurv it when you get angry.

If only I was 20 years younger........

OK, 25.

[LittleDemon]

At the end of the day you have martial arts clubs and organisations in it for the money but mostly you have martial arts clubs who's first and foremost concern is the wellbeing of the students and their progress in training, because teaching also helps you gain valuable knowledge of dealing with different people and makes your brain work harder because trying to figure out another students problem with a technique is to me more difficult then if you were yourself having a problem lol

but yah opening clubs after 6 months trouble is just asking for trouble especially if you havent done martial arts before and you only have 6 months under your belt then all kinds of things can go wrong and the worst thing is people then get big headed and think oh yeah im so good i can have my own club after only 6 months training, major problems can occur, injuries and lack of teaching knowledge. How would you stop a possible fight situation in the class with no discipline where students square each other up , you would earn yourself a reputation that could destroy your martial arts career if things went terribly wrong . Now that just pisses me off!