Forms

[Seismic Anamoly]

Yes, Sil Lum Tao. It was stupid.

Seismic - Why have the theory? Its a fighting art, and should train you how to fight. There is no real similarity to shadow boxing, as that is spontaneous.

You are merely learning how to dance. And not particularly well. Any indirect benefit can be gained in a more direct manner by other means.

Ok let me start off by saying how pissed I am that my original response to this statement didnt go through as a result of my being timed out by some phucken time clock. I hate you mr. clock man, wherever you are.

Anyway.

Thai,

Every martial art has its own theory. Braillian Jiu Jitsu has it (it is Jiu Jitsu based after all). But for this instance we'll use boxing as an example. In Boxing you learn early how to throw a correct punch. You also learn how to block certain punches. You will also learn how to manuever in the ring. You eventually take all these basic elements and principles and combine them into techniques. You try these techniques out through shadowboxing. Later you may test them in the ring through sparring. And finally into a real fight. But, at its root core you start off by learning the "basics".
Now lets take Wing Chun. A principle based martial art. Here you take the same methodology as a boxer (learn to throw a punch and toss a block) combine this with sparring (choi sao or fan sao) and you have the same approach as above. There is one difference, however, in Wing Chun there is the practice of Chi Sao. I wont reiterate what Chi Sao is since you already know. Chi Sao is the "Link" from "theory" (forms, shadow boxing, sparring) and "reality" (fighting, muggings, carjackings etc...) . Now I am glad you made the statement of "any indirect benefit can be learn through a direct benefit". Because, the aspect of Wing Chun Forms and Fighting that I'm not sure you may have noticed is the linear structure. Sure you can combine all these "benefits", but then it would be mismatched and not as efficient in learning. Its similar to the premise of buying a car or building one from scratch. Sure you can build a monster car to your desire and specifications..buts much much much longer and time consuming and sometimes more expensive than just buying one already prepackaged for you. Does that make sense? Sorry for the long winded response. But this damn forum timed me out.


oh and one other thing. Dont ever talk about my dancing mutha phucka!

-S.A.

[Thai Bri]

I'm just not addressing idiotic claims that forms give you mystical powers anymore. And to say a form does as much for your fitness as 1 minute of boxing begs the response of "do the boxing, you'll get many more benefits at the same time".

Seismic - yes, you get a package. But is it a good quality package? You mention BJJ and boxing. They have proven themselves as effective arts many times. They do not do forms neither. But Wing Chun? I have never seen proof of Wing Chuns effectiveness, beyond stories from star struck students about secret fights........

[konghan]

I'm just not addressing idiotic claims that forms give you mystical powers anymore. And to say a form does as much for your fitness as 1 minute of boxing begs the response of "do the boxing, you'll get many more benefits at the same time".

Seismic - yes, you get a package. But is it a good quality package? You mention BJJ and boxing. They have proven themselves as effective arts many times. They do not do forms neither. But Wing Chun? I have never seen proof of Wing Chuns effectiveness, beyond stories from star struck students about secret fights........

Who ever say that forms gives one mystical powers?

Whatever benefit forms have is something that many people like you wouldnot understand. We can compare it with the problem before with western medical organization who look down & claim that chinese herbal medicine & acupuncure principle have no if little medical benefit. But now chinese medical principle is recognize with joint medical research as well as exchange of medical information happening between the west & the east.

[Thai Bri]

Forms develop the following:
3. focus & conditioned our mind & subconcious to know how to react in a given situation.
4. prevents panicking, develop presence of mind not only in fighting but in any emergency situation, decision making.
12. develop our sixth sense, the ability to feel & sense danger
13. help us develop the ability to see thru certain individuals characteristics & intentions

You said they developed mystical powers, you idiot.

And just because some people believe that crushing a Tiger's Balls and rubbing it into your anus makes you more virile, nothing is added to the view that forms are beneficial or not.

[konghan]

Forms develop the following:
1. breathing
2. stamina & endurance
3. focus & conditioned our mind & subconcious to know how to react in a given situation.
4. prevents panicking, develop presence of mind not only in fighting but in any emergency situation, decision making.
5. develop our foot work & balance
6. develop proper coordination of legs, hips, shoulders & arms
7. develop proper utilization of power punch & power kick.
8. develop timing
9. develop techniques
10. exercise our interior organs
11. develop good blood circulation
12. develop our sixth sense, the ability to feel & sense danger
13. help us develop the ability to see thru certain individuals characteristics & intentions

So far thats` it.

uhmm???, I don`t see anything about what I said that has anything to do with mystical powers?, I guess the idiot & to add ignorance was the one who posted the question on the first place & doesn`t understand why he posted it.

[konghan]

Originally Posted by konghan
Forms develop the following:
3. focus & conditioned our mind & subconcious to know how to react in a given situation.
4. prevents panicking, develop presence of mind not only in fighting but in any emergency situation, decision making.
12. develop our sixth sense, the ability to feel & sense danger
13. help us develop the ability to see thru certain individuals characteristics & intentions

You said they developed mystical powers, you idiot.

And just because some people believe that crushing a Tiger's Balls and rubbing it into your anus makes you more virile, nothing is added to the view that forms are beneficial or not.

3. so boxers or muay thai who perform shadow boxing, I guess that doesn`t sharpened their skill as far as reacting automatically against an opponent action?
4. same, without proper mental training do you think boxers will know when to time a punch or a muay thai to time a knee attack? or in a street situation w/out that training will they be in a shock mode when somebody pull a knife at them demanding money? or a roadrage driver comes charging at them with a baseball bat do you think a train fighter will just stand there in awe & scared & allowed himself to be whack?
12. I guess for you, you`ll never know if somebody is following you from your work or school to your home. Thats` the kind of people that muggers love to jump on.
13. how do you ID a bully? or a con artist? or if somebody is trying to pull a fast one on you? or to see a punch or kick coming in at you?

You are a sitting target a good target for predetors.

[ryanhall]

Sorry, Konghan, but Bri has beaten you like you've stolen something on this one.

I'd say that "developing a sixth sense" (a sense that does not fall under the normal five that most humans are known to possess) and "developing the ability to see through certain individuals' characteristics & intentions" would fall under the category of mystical powers. You don't seriously believe in that stuff, do you?

I guess the idiot & to add ignorance was the one who posted the question on the first place & doesn`t understand why he posted it

Also, if you are going to attempt to insult someone in the future, you would be well-advised to do it in an actual language. Just because you are using words from the English language does not mean that you are actually speaking/writing it.

[ryanhall]

12. I guess for you, you`ll never know if somebody is following you from your work or school to your home. Thats` the kind of people that muggers love to jump on.
13. how do you ID a bully? or a con artist? or if somebody is trying to pull a fast one on you? or to see a punch or kick coming in at you?

Doing kata certainly won't help you with these problems.

3. so boxers or muay thai who perform shadow boxing, I guess that doesn`t sharpened their skill as far as reacting automatically against an opponent action?
4. same, without proper mental training do you think boxers will know when to time a punch or a muay thai to time a knee attack? or in a street situation w/out that training will they be in a shock mode when somebody pull a knife at them demanding money? or a roadrage driver comes charging at them with a baseball bat do you think a train fighter will just stand there in awe & scared & allowed himself to be whack?

Kata is a dead-pattern drill with absolutely zero real benefit to it when compared to other drills. Shadowboxing is not dead-pattern. It is spontaneous, and therefore gives more benefit to the one performing it.

Speaking of mental training, forms (and other dead-pattern drills) are the very definition of removing the brain from the equation. If you are performing the same action over and over again with no timing, no spontaneity whatsoever, you aren't even required to think. Also, it's not mental training that allows a boxer or MT fighter to time an attack--it's countless hours spent sparring against someone trying to hit them back to the best of their ability. Timing does not and cannot come from a solo exercise or a dead-pattern drill.

[Thai Bri]

Wait. I get it now. Reading minds and developing a Spider Sense are not mystical powers at all. They are just bull shit and, therefore, are certainly in the same league as forms........

I agree with Ryan. I win.

You can develop awareness. But that is about being in a state of mind where you take in everything about your surroundings. With practice you naturally notice where, for example, fire exits are in case there is an emergency, or will habitually walk some distance away from an enclosed doorway, just in case someone is hiding there. This is just like the advanced driver, who trains to see what is going on around him in a much better way than the average driver, so he is more prepared to deal with potential emergencies.

You can even learn to read peoples intent during a fight. But that is by picking up on their physical movement, or even their speech/pupil dilation etc. It is not mind reading.

BUT NONE OF THESE THINGS CAN BE LEARNED BY PRACTISING FORMS! NONE OF THEM. ZILCH. ZEROZOID. NIL POINTS!

You have succesfully ridiculed Forms. Serious and knowledgeable Chinese Martial Arts practitioners must be looking for you. The quicker they shut you up, the better reputation their arts will have.

[2bob]

"Whatever benefit forms have is something that many people like you wouldnot understand. "

I trained in Chinese forms for many years. Now I think there is nothing in form training that you can't get through other methods, usually more efficiently and effectively.

[guy incognito]

I train my forms to develop my muscle memory for the different techniques.The more you do them the more they will become instantaneous when you need to use them.The more you practice the easier you brain can process which nerve pathways are activated for a given movement.This means that you actually have to think less about a given movement.Think of it like this.When you started to learn to drive you had to really concentrate.But now after years of practice you just do it and you can talk on your mobile listen to the radio etc as well.

[konghan]

Wait. I get it now. Reading minds and developing a Spider Sense are not mystical powers at all. They are just bull shit and, therefore, are certainly in the same league as forms........

I agree with Ryan. I win.

You can develop awareness. But that is about being in a state of mind where you take in everything about your surroundings. With practice you naturally notice where, for example, fire exits are in case there is an emergency, or will habitually walk some distance away from an enclosed doorway, just in case someone is hiding there. This is just like the advanced driver, who trains to see what is going on around him in a much better way than the average driver, so he is more prepared to deal with potential emergencies.

You can even learn to read peoples intent during a fight. But that is by picking up on their physical movement, or even their speech/pupil dilation etc. It is not mind reading.

BUT NONE OF THESE THINGS CAN BE LEARNED BY PRACTISING FORMS! NONE OF THEM. ZILCH. ZEROZOID. NIL POINTS!

You have succesfully ridiculed Forms. Serious and knowledgeable Chinese Martial Arts practitioners must be looking for you. The quicker they shut you up, the better reputation their arts will have.

No, people who don`t & cannot comprehend what forms are in MA definetly are not martial artist but are just plain fighters & their lack of that artistic & philisophical attributes make them redicule & make fun of TMA . The same way they used to redicule eastern herbal medicine & acupancture.

in fact some medical doctors are starting to see the health benefits of tai chi.

[guy incognito]

If you dont like the practice of forms fine.
I dont like mindless exhibitions of brute force which if you are doing then your just a thug not a martial artist.
If you dont have forms in your system then you will never understand them
By the way what i posted about muscle memory is a biologically proven fact look it up if you dont beleive me.

[Thai Bri]

I'm not talking to konghan anymore. He's fookin blown 'em.

Guy, re your driving analogy re muscle memory...... It is quite simply inaccurate. Your muscles are learning how to hit thin air, and to react to a totally non spontaneous stimuli. And no one practices driving a car by sitting in a pretend car, holding a pretend wheel and pressing pretend pedals etc. But that is exactly what forms are compared to real life.

[guy incognito]

Bottom line is I practice them because I want to.Nothing anybody says will change that.
Ive seen plenty of muay thai classes practicing kicking thin air to just P.S.