Forms

[IPON]

Forms are redundant. They waste time AND teach you how to do it wrong.

Bri I really don't have a problem with nor do I agree that "punching air" just trains to "punch air" if this were true dispite what you say it would be the same for shadow boxing. If you think there are more modern or effective training techquies you are probably correct, but that does not mean that forms/katas are harmful as you descibe. I do not understand why you seem to think that MAists did not know how to fight until the last few years.


I have a question only asnwer yes or no: Can you honestly say that YOU could win a fight with a traditional karateka (whatever style) with size age and weight being equal.

I am sorry friend regardless of the use of forms people do know how to fight. I would agree if someone were ONLY doing forms and then going home yes that would be a problem but I do not even think McDojos are that limited.

I have studied forms they are not distracting in a fight nor and I less productive. I could learn 200 techniques, but I am sorry you are not in a fight and think"hmm which of these 200 techniques should I use" its not realistic. If that were to happen the person is eaither not in a real fight and/or they really have not trained or understand teh techniques.

My 2 cents

[guy incognito]

I agree there is nothing mystical to be gained from form,kata and poomse training."Spider sense" i tkink someone used to describe in this thread.Understanding the mechanics of how an opponents energy(Power if you will) flows however can be acheived.Although this is done with push hands drills etc.Forms also allow the opportunity for your sifu to caorract your technique and I think this is the most important reason for practice.
Are you satisfied with that response?

[konghan]

I agree there is nothing mystical to be gained from form,kata and poomse training."Spider sense" i tkink someone used to describe in this thread.Understanding the mechanics of how an opponents energy(Power if you will) flows however can be acheived.Although this is done with push hands drills etc.Forms also allow the opportunity for your sifu to caorract your technique and I think this is the most important reason for practice.
Are you satisfied with that response?

I beleive "that mystical thing" or "spider sense" was exagerated out of context by Thai. Becuase he just couldn`t accept the fact that forms does work & forms does help molds an athelets atheletic abilities. This ability is not normally part of the 5 senses. So, people term this extraordinary skill as special skill, intuition, athletic abilities or the sixth sense. Which I like to term it as such, espacially when I see that hockey goalie`s ability to catch & sense that puck coming in from his blind side.

Sixth sense is nothing mystical about it in fact scientist have prove that humans does possess this extra ability.

"By Richard Sadler
The Scotsman.com
9-30-3

British scientists say there is convincing evidence that a significant proportion of the population possess psychic powers.

The British Association for the Advancement of Science was told an increasing number of experiments support the theory of a human "sixth sense" - an ability which may have its roots in our past, when the ability to sense the presence of a predator was a matter of life or death. "

[IPON]

I beleive "that mystical thing" or "spider sense" was exagerated out of context by Thai.

Actually, I agree with Bri on this point, at least the context. Doing forms alone not provide any type of "sixth sense" however defined. What you are referring to is the overall anticipation of events by a MA through overall experience and training...not forms/katas. It would be like a boxer ducking a punch or grappler countering a move that instinct is based on repetition and experience. I am not for or against Katas, but I see them as one aspect of training (usually and small part) learning proper techniques (stregth, coordination, balance etc) yes I can agree. Beyond that we are going down the wrong path with this discussion

[Thai Bri]

We're going off at tangents here.

1. Ground versus stand up? Irrelevant to the thread.

2. Sports versus street effectiveness? Theres no one who believes that sportsa only have a limited carry over to the streets than I. I am a reality based self defence student. Yes, MMA etc. is brilliant. But no, it is not the be all and end all. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT DOING SOMETHING USELESS FOR SPORTS MUST MAKE IT USEFULL FOR THE STREET. Forms are useless for both.

3. Forms are distracting in a fight. I never said this. They don't "distract" you - they make you react poorly. It isn't the same thing. The old "shadow boxing is the same" argument has been dealt with time and time again. It is not the same as forms.

4. Guy, how can pushing empty air help you understand anyones energy? This is one of the reasons forms are so friggin bad! People can come at you from a million different angles. Even the same right handed attack can come at minutely different angles. But in forms your response has got to be the same. Same position, same angle etc. etc. It is totally missing the point, and is bullshit.

5. Sixth sense? Maybe, who knows? For every example of someone "knowing" there loved one was in danger...... there are a hundred million examples of when they didn't. In any case, how the fluck do you get to the claim that forms help you develop this?

6. Other physical pursuits use "forms". No, no they don't. Just becaue a golfer practices his swing? That is irrelevant, and he actuially hits a ball a million times more often. For a golfer do to the equivalent of a form he would have to ritually walk the course..... swinging an imaginary club at an imaginary ball at certain precise and predetermined points on the ground. Bullshit. Getting back to fighting, if they helped performance in a real fight, wouldn't they also help performance in a sport? Wouldn't the heavyweight champion of the world use them? Or any of the top fighters? No, of course not. And do you know why? BECAUSE THEY ADD FLUCK ALL TO YOUR PERFORMANCE - AND THEY DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

Forms and Katas are a regular training tool of the McDojo's. Their use is far far more prevalent there than in places where people fight for real. You people really should think about the reasons why that is.

IPON - re your "could you win a fight with a Tradtiional Karate-ke question. I give you an unequivocal yes. Especially since I was one! The 21 year old Shukokai driven Thai, with all his youth, fitness and Kata would not stand the slightest chance against the fat, 40 year old Thai. Not the slightest.

I don't know. This is all so desperate. Your waving limbs in a predertimed pattern agianst thin air. Your "Master" pops along every now and then to "correct" your "mistakes". What bollox.

EVEN BRUCE LEE REJECTED FORMS! WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?

[IPON]

IPON - re your "could you win a fight with a Tradtiional Karate-ke question. I give you an unequivocal yes. Especially since I was one! The 21 year old Shukokai driven Thai, with all his youth, fitness and Kata would not stand the slightest chance against the fat, 40 year old Thai. Not the slightest.

There is no desperation on my part. Maybe I should have used ANY karateka(and saying tat you could beat your old self, while clever is not an answer). The overall point is can a person fight. You say they cause a person react poorly (I said disctract but we are sying the same thing) and my point is the use of kata/forms impedes noones fighting ability. so again, do you think that all these years that people have been fighting with kata and form based MA, nonone could fight. And don't say "oh maybe there are some its is the exception" You are putting far too much emphasis of form/kata limiting or impeding one's ability to fight or defend themselves

[Thai Bri]

What a strange reply? Whether you used "any" Karate-ka or not is down to you, and I think I did answer. The phrase "I can give you an unequivocal yes" was a little hint.

You assume that people have been able to fight in the martial arts. Didn't you watch the early UFCs? Didn't you see the super cool demos from Karate, Kung Fu, Silat and Ninjitsu? Great weren't they. But what happened when the umberella of compliancy was taken away? These people got pissed wet through. Do you think these guys were any worse than the ancient so called masters?

Forms are even worse, as you aren't even training with a compliant partner. Wake up and smell the roses. The martial arts are grossly over rated as regards fighting ability. How many 10 year old black belts do you need to see? How many bleeding black belts have to get battered by a drunk?

You do forms coz its easy, makes you feel cool and enables you to pretend that you are "training." Its fookin' sad. Wake up and learn how to fight instead. Or take up gardening? It can be quite hard work, and won't actually hinder your fighting potential.

[chris davis 200]

Ok! My opinion on form work.

Forms can mean many different things but i will start with Karate & Shaolin derivatives (as this is what it is most associated with in the External Systems).

These forms are designed to instill many things in the student.

I would say that the primary goal of form training is the training of the mind. Teaching you to be calm while your body is performing strenuous acts. This position can be likened to Iaido where the focus is not on leaning directly to fight with a sword but to foster and create a focused, 'immovable' mind.

This type of training is quite strange for most westerners. To create a mind that is capable of fighting requires actual fighting to take place according to the western viewpoint. This may be true to some extent but the ability to have no preplanned thought process and just a spontaneous reaction response is also very helpful. I guess that I am saying that although the techniques inherent in the form may appear useless, what is going on in the mind is not.

Another aspect to this external style of forms is the development of the muscular structure of the exponent. This was another primary purpose of form training. When there were no gyms, no creatine etc then this was one of the better ways to build a good musculature.

Now of course this reason is fairly redundant. Modern training skills allow practitioners to become far healthier, far quicker.

Finally we come to the fighting techniques. In you average Karate or Shaolin form you will have extremely deep stances, stop start movement (more so Karate) and techniques that you wont use EVER!

So what’s the point in then? .... Well my opinion is that what you are learning here is the principles behind the movements.

In order to appreciate the techniques of your style and be able to use them spontaneously you need to be able to understand them at their core. Not just the external length of the stance, extension of the arm etc but how this is applying force, to where. You can intellectualize this during training but if you practice this with your body in an exaggerated way then you will understand it at a more instinctive level.

Let me point out here that few Karate teachers etc understand this and most think they are doing actual combat. So regardless of the plus side I think that Bri is right to say that most are redundant to combat. And could hinder your development as a fighter.

Moving onto the Internal systems that I study.

Internal systems have a big goal to loosen the joints and use the weight of the body, combined with connection of the bodies hard tissues ( bone) and the release of stored energy from the body (tendons etc)

Most of the forms are based around this principle. As you move through a tai chi form for instance you use the movements to separate and contract all of your joints and tissues.

The reason that this is important, especially in tai chi. is that it allows you body to release the support or resistance from an attack, causing the attackers center to be compromised and the attack to be useless.

In addition it allows you to move at a greater speed – if you have a big tight musclular body then you will be fairly slow. If you have the released joints and free movement of an internal stylist you will be very quick. This is one of the paradoxes of the internal arts. Moving slow as you do in tai chi will actually make you faster!

It also allows you to use the entire weight of a limb, for instance, in attack. If you have tight tense muscles you will, even without knowing it support, the limb somewhat, making it less heavy and less powerful. A well build mans arm weighs about 10 - 15lbs (for instance) so imaging having a 10 - 15lb dumbbell thrown at your stomach, kidneys or face! This is the power of relaxation!

A tai chi form will also, very effectively, teach the 4 primary and 4 secondary combat principles of tai chi. This is more a method of feeling where the direction of your force is. Not necessarily a replication of combat techniques. Tai chi in combat doesn’t look like much of anything, quite often appearing clumsy, and certainly not like the forms. But the principles going on behind the scenes are what is important. This is why you often hear – “he wasn’t using tai chi, I didn’t see one tai chi techniques”. This is because tai chi has no ‘techniques’ but only principles of how to use and overcome force.

Another reason for forms in the internal systems is to learn to use the tendons and bones effectively. When moving through the forms you are constantly putting pressure on the tendon structure, due to the lack of muscular support, and working the tendons. This makes them more elastic and stronger. Enabling them to store and release power more effectively.

You also learn to use the spine, hips etc to generate power.

This is most obvious in the forms of hsing i.

In Hsing I all the forms are designed to make you find a certain type of force and intention. This involves very short repetitions of seemingly simple movements. Once you understand where the force is going then you can work with it from any part of the body or any direction. You also learn how different types of force overcome each other.

This is FUNDIMENTAL to the style and cannot really be trained in a modern gym.

So in conclusion I think that many forms found in modern western styles are useless having lost the purposes for which they were designed. I also think to some extent that the forms of some traditional external systems have lost their importance and have been over emphasized. But I still believe that there are styles that without forms would not exist and would not retain the fighting abilities of the art.

Cheers
Chris

[IPON]

What a strange reply? Whether you used "any" Karate-ka or not is down to you, and I think I did answer. The phrase "I can give you an unequivocal yes" was a little hint..

Bri you are basically saying that you could take any karateka in a fight....which is utter stupdity.

You assume that people have been able to fight in the martial arts. Didn't you watch the early UFCs? Didn't you see the super cool demos from Karate, Kung Fu, Silat and Ninjitsu? Great weren't they. But what happened when the umberella of compliancy was taken away? These people got pissed wet through. Do you think these guys were any worse than the ancient so called masters?..

Well I think we are both making assumptions.......you assume they can't fight and I assume poeple can or at least I am saying if they cannot it is not by virtue of just doing forms.

The early UFC proved the standing MAs did not have an answer for grapling arts particulary BJJ. It did not prove that striking styles were ineffective. Look at PRIDE and K1

Forms are even worse, as you aren't even training with a compliant partner. Wake up and smell the roses. The martial arts are grossly over rated as regards fighting ability. How many 10 year old black belts do you need to see? How many bleeding black belts have to get battered by a drunk?.

Again, I don't know why you insist I need to wake up I have said before that forms, IMHO, do not determine fighting ability. I have been in styles that use them and styles that don't. Forms are an aspect of training..period. If you removed forms training ...... those bad fighters would still be bad fighters becuase they either do not have the mentality for fighting or becuase they would not be able to handle the training becuase you turn up the heat with harder training.

Look I appreciate your passion for MAs and that it needs change. I can understand that this issue with forms maybe affected you as you are stating your experience. But dude you are almost fantaical with this kata thing reminesent of kevin green and bowing. The training needs to change but the big issue is not form.

I have not diagreed with this point regarding about 10yrs old black belts.

You do forms coz its easy, makes you feel cool and enables you to pretend that you are "training." Its fookin' sad. Wake up and learn how to fight instead. Or take up gardening? It can be quite hard work, and won't actually hinder your fighting potential.

My friend easy with the words. I do know how to fight and I do train hard no need to challege. I study forms if they are part of the style personally don't mind, but I do like tradition. When I say I am not for or against forms what do you not understand. Let me help, again

your argument forms=inability to fight,

My argument forms =/ (does not equal) or determine fighting ability

Agreement: training is poor in a various areas in MAs more realistic training is needed this is the main problem

[guy incognito]

4. Guy, how can pushing empty air help you understand anyones energy? This is one of the reasons forms are so friggin bad! People can come at you from a million different angles. Even the same right handed attack can come at minutely different angles. But in forms your response has got to be the same. Same position, same angle etc. etc. It is totally missing the point, and is bullshit.

5. Sixth sense? Maybe, who knows? For every example of someone "knowing" there loved one was in danger...... there are a hundred million examples of when they didn't. In any case, how the fluck do you get to the claim that forms help you develop this?

I never said pushing air could!Push hands is a 2 person drill.And
someone else used the term spider sense i was just repeating it not agreeing with it.

[guy incognito]

Push hands is a 2 person drill,not pushing thin air!Someone else brought up spider sense i was just saying i dont beleive that.

[Thai Bri]

Guy, I know they did. Point 4 was for you, not 5. But, as regards 4. - wha does a two person drill have to do with one person forms?

Chris - I disagree with someof what you say re external forms (which is all I know about). But at least we can agree that, toay, they're largely worthless. As for internal, I'm not yet convinced, mbut it does sound reasonabe. The "principle behind the movement" line is a good one to explore.

IPON - You're twisting and turning. You ask a question and I clearly answer.
Then you say I haven't answered it and, when I point out that I did, you then complain that my answer was silly, and relate it to a question you didn't even ask? Confused? I know I am.

Of course I assume those guys couldn't fight. There was a clue..... they were the ones tapping out all the time. Durrrrr. That is a fair basis for thew assumption after all. I know you do other things as well as forms. But this thread asked "ewhat do they give you". Your answers show to me that you think they give you lots more than they actually do...... And you've hardly come up with any real evidence to back up your arguments.

Remember that phrase about the proof of the pudding being in the eating? Well wake up, and watch an early UFC. There's all the pudding you need.