Forms

[konghan]

konghan - I honestly think you're insane.

EF - The thread was started in response to another. You don't have to join min if you don't want to.

Jingshen - this is how they teach you to do it wrong. The balance, body mechanics, stance etc. in forms is totally different than when doing these things for real. By practicing forms, you are teaching your body to do it wrong. Its as simple as that.

" Rotten wood cannot be carved" by E. W. Chynn

[Thai Bri]

I dont know about other styles but in mine we dont do techniques in the form that cant be applied to combat or drills or sparring.We do every single one of them as we learn them against an opponent first.Without doing this the student does do it wrong in the form.
You cant deny the ellement of control of stopping a full power round house kick in front of you instead of keep spinning around.

Yes you can. These people do not kick full power. Sure, they may scream a bit, and their leg may well snap out incredibly fast..... But, in essence, they're pointing their knee AND THEN kicking.

Try an experiment. Let a guy kick, again and again. Alternate when the pad is there and when you move it. One of two things will happen:-

1 - he will consistently give flook all power on the pad or

2 - he will totally change his action depending on whether or not the pad is there. When not, he will knee point first. When it is, he will slam his leg into the pad without the pointing action.

Lets keep it real guy. I know you're not stupid enough to believe that forms give you mind reading ability and a sixth sense...... But it is just not physically possible to throw one leg on a horizintal plain and then stop it dead.....unless, of course, you are NOT kicking with power.

[2bob]

"No, people who don`t & cannot comprehend what forms are in MA definetly are not martial artist but are just plain fighters & their lack of that artistic & philisophical attributes make them redicule & make fun of TMA"

I studied traditional Chinese MA for over 15 years so don't tell me what I can and can't understand. Simple truth is it's people like you who have screwed them up. so far up your own backside with your snobby attitiude. When you can come somewhere near the level of "plain fighter" maybe we can talk .

"If you dont like the practice of forms fine.
I dont like mindless exhibitions of brute force which if you are doing then your just a thug not a martial artist.
If you dont have forms in your system then you will never understand them"

Ditto

"I train my forms to develop my muscle memory for the different techniques."

That's great if you are working from a technique base. Unfortunately the real world doens't always mirror form movements.

[guy incognito]

I does require a certain amount of control dont you think?

[2bob]

I wonder if people can point us to some good examples of form-based training in action in real situations?

The two that sparng to mind for me were William Cheung vs Botztepe and the Macau White Crane vs Taiji fight.

[guy incognito]

I think the W.Cheung vs Boztepe fight was a good example of FORMnicating.The look like they were gettin funky not fighting!

[jingshen]

your'e missing the point, it has already been said that form practice is no the only training require bag work, pad work and sparring is also needed...forms are only a part of the training...they are a reference guide for techniques...yes partner training is required in order to learn how to apply the techniques....if you don't learn the techniques in the first place what doyou have?

[2bob]

Like I said, that's OK if you are working from a technique-based style - if he does this, you do that.

If you work from a principle-base there is no need for form type training. Even if you are working from technique, why not just practice them against a partner? That way you can still work body alignment, coordination, etc, etc but with the added bonus of actually working against a person rather than imaginary opponents.

[jingshen]

I think we need to define form, even one technique, a punch for instance, if yuo follow a teacher to learn how to punch and you practice that punch several times on your own then you are practicing form? so what's the big negative about practising lots of terchniques in succession? doesn'tmena mymind becomes closed to free flowing movement?....you also have several drawbacks to partner training, bag training and pad work. Every movement you perform has a certain stimulus? you get a certain feel frompunching a a bag? a particular partner will move, respond, attack in a acertain way? so training with the same person or small number of people will illicit a prescribed response from your body? the only real test of your abilities is to fight for real...not in a ring...no rules...pure aggression/adrenaline/fear, etc...that is the only real true test?

Form, single techniques, bag work, pad work, sparring, competition fighting are all only training methods. There are benefits and drawbacks to all of them? I'm only saying that there is a real benefit to form training...it has helped me and i enjoy doing it. I also spar, full contact, sanshou rules, use traditional sparring, no rules...with the aim on stopping your opponents progress within two to three seconds of contact...i also practice with weapons as well as fight people from different martial arts including BJJ, Vale Tudo, kickboxing, wing chun and boxing....the forms help me develop my techniques as other training methods help me to apply them.

Also is the fact that they are an ideal way of recording and teaching methods to new students.......as has happened throughout history....

don't dismiss them they are a valuable tool...

regards

[Thai Bri]

No. Forms are the pre set patterns of numerous techniques. We are not using the word to describe the training of one movement. I should know - I started the thread.

You asked how could we learn without the forms? Ask the Mike Tyson's and Rickson Gracie's of this world. They dd pretty well without them.

Forms are redundant. They waste time AND teach you how to do it wrong. ALL the arguments in favour of forms (apart from the "I like them" argument) have been illogical. You make a point, see it answered, then steer away from discussing it further...... but then repeat the same silly and illogical point again.

[jingshen]

saying forms are redundant and teach you wrong is not an arguement? You asked the question but you seem unwilling to listen to any answers. Whether you practice forms or not is up to you. For me i feel there is a definate benefit. If someone can offer an alternative then i am open , however, i haven;'t yet come across one. As i said before forms are only part of a training package. The package i haave learnt is a good one and i have no complaints....

[Thai Bri]

Would you like to point the way to any top fighters who have studied the same package?

[jingshen]

nope i can't,

my answer would be that pro fighters train for pro fights? fights in a set format, a strict set of rules in a controlled environment. They are usually naturally hard men who go through extensive training to use a limited number of techniques?

This string wasn't started to discuss pro fighters i don't think?

I think the question was why do we use forms?

I gave you my opinion on why and you dismissed it?

Why then did you ask the question?

did you want answers and opinions or just an argument ?

Many top sanshou fighters in china come from a forms background, i can't name any of them because i don't really follow the sport?

then again i don't really follow many of the fighting sports, which is what they are, fighting 'sports'. I don't come on here to slag them of as amny people enjoy them and that's great. My idea of a martial art isn't contained within a sporting format but i can accept ttheir training methods/principles and leave them to get on with it.

I do enjoy forms and i do get a real benefit from them regardless of how many top fighters dont?

[Seismic Anamoly]

I'm just not addressing idiotic claims that forms give you mystical powers anymore. And to say a form does as much for your fitness as 1 minute of boxing begs the response of "do the boxing, you'll get many more benefits at the same time".

Seismic - yes, you get a package. But is it a good quality package? You mention BJJ and boxing. They have proven themselves as effective arts many times. They do not do forms neither. But Wing Chun? I have never seen proof of Wing Chuns effectiveness, beyond stories from star struck students about secret fights........

Thai,

Sorry it took me long to respond to this thread. But in regards to your last statement to me.

Wheter its a "good quality package" would be subject to subjective analysis at best. What you define as "good quality package" would be different from somene elses. Some people would rather have more impact in their training, hence they train with more impact (i.e. hitting bags, dummies, full contact sparring, etc...). Others would limit themselves to internal training. In essence both types of martial artist are trying to get to the same point, albeit different routes.
Yes, time and time again, BJJ and Boxing have proven themselves on sport arenas (UFC, PRIDE, etc..) . Yet I HIGHLY DOUBT that you can use that as your measuring stick for what you would use on the street for all and any given situation. Dont get me wrong, I'm sure a gracie will handle himself fine in a supermarket parking-lot late at night by a random mugger. But take for instance where I live. I'm from the Chicago area where I was raised here for many many many moons. There is no way in hell, given this enviornment that I live in, I would want my fight to go to the ground. That would be suicide on my part. Why? Because where I live you RARELY see a fight go one-on-one. People get jumped, bum rushed, and lynched like redheaded step children. Your best bet is to stay on your feet and bail out when necessary. Hey, its not glamourous as an arena fight, but their is no glory in Muddville where I live. So hence, I have no desire to learn a ground fighting art. I respect them, but it's not my cup of tea. My reality is probably different from yours. You may have not seen Wing Chun used in a street scenario, but I have. And yes it works.
Now as to the subject of forms. All I can say is what I've said before, Its merely on how you approach the function of "forms". If you depend on some mystical "sense" to develop from doing a repetitive movement your going to be waiting a while. Now if you use them to engrain to muscle memory AND secondary health purposes your reaping the full benefit. Which is ultimately better than taking bits and pieces from other arts and making your own hodpodge of an art.


-S.A.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Your best bet is to stay on your feet and bail out when necessary. Hey, its not glamourous as an arena fight, but their is no glory in Muddville where I live. So hence, I have no desire to learn a ground fighting art. I respect them, but it's not my cup of tea. My reality is probably different from yours. You may have not seen Wing Chun used in a street scenario, but I have. And yes it works.

I'll have to disagree. If you want to know what works in a multi opponent situation is the mystical art of......

TRACK AND CROSS COUNTRY.

my answer would be that pro fighters train for pro fights? fights in a set format, a strict set of rules in a controlled environment. They are usually naturally hard men who go through extensive training to use a limited number of techniques

Actually Rickson Gracie competes mainly in fights with little to no rules.