Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

[krys]

My silat GM told me there are different old chinese styles down south.... the one I saw performed feels like hard kung fu, with hard chi kung, brutal and very efficient..... I don't remember the name.... muslim CMAs are generally called kuntaw....

The chinese names may not be used anymore as these cma are usually familly systems....
like "kuntaw of the .... clan".

Silat and kuntaw are difficult to see in the Philippines and you need to be introduced. If I happen to meet another muslim cma practitioners I will ask....

It is easier to see cmas practiced by chinese peoples there: you have Taizu, Kun Tat Tou, Gokosha (style of the Go familly), NCK, Hsing I, Bagua, TaiChi .....

[LittleDemon]

Foundations Of Shaolin Kung_Fu

The Foundation Of Shaoling Kung-Fu

Hand forms, stances and basic patterns

"Today when you learn a Shaolin Kung-Fu set, which incorporates numerous patterns with different hand forms and stances, you innherit the crystiallization of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development".

Wong Kiew Kit



Inheritance from past masters

through the different centuries masters of kung-fu have found that certain methods of atttack of defence have real advantages in combat situations. They found that punching at waist level gave them more power then if they punched at shoulder height. Having better balance means kicks could be executed forcefully then if they kicked with no balance.

Movements of the hands in a circular motion meant masters were able to minimize their opponents strength when blocking pucnhing attacks.
Shifting in body weight to go backwards in a certain stance meant they could avoid kicks without moving their legs back.
These movements, gave them technical advantages in fights.
These were formed into what is now known as the different Kung-Fu stlyes.

The first Kung-Fu patterns were developed through long years of trial and error.
Later when early masters had distinguished enough patterns of many different styles to formulate the principles and theories, study and experimenting had a very important aspect in the intervention of more patterns.
With the trials and errors that occurred with the experiments, masters discovered that in addition to punching stright from the waist they could also strike using swining arms, or use an elbow to strike with.
also masters found that striking an opponent with a swinging arm was onyl desirable to attack with if their arms were strong and the opponent in question was some distance away from them.
If their arms were weaker and didnt hold the suffiecient strength or or if their opponent was in closer range then the elbow would be a better choice of weapon.
From these trials of experiments a body of principles and theories for fighting were established and this gave was for new patterns to emerge with the right principles, perhaps not actually for fighting but for study and speculation from training these experimental theories with their students.

Early masters learned invaluable study material through their own lessons and taking an interest of movements of animals and birds.
Don't laugh at this aspect because apart from being mentally superior to animals we are very far behind animals in terms of natural defensive functions of our bodies, we lack sensual perception and puire survival instinct.

The power of a tiger, the endurnace of an Ox and the precisivness of an eagleare proverbial.
Evan small animals and creatures such as the mighty ant i call them mighty because they can carry 8 times their own body weight and they have such a subtle and delicate body yet its so strong.

Needless to say animals had a huge influence on the masters creating what is now known as Shaolin Kung_Fu. Shaolin monastery was the first known institution allowed to study and promote the forms and skills of Kung-Fu also to study and promote the forms and skills with professionalism and in a systemmatic way.
Shaolin has remained to this day a leading figure behind the art that is Kung-Fu.
Hence Kung-Fu reached a fine level for instance many martial arts styles train a clenched fist as their main derogative of defence, whereas Kung-Fu has about 20 different forms for attacks trained by the hands of Shaolin practiotioners, also while a lot of martial arts pay little attention to the way their students stance is held, Kung-Fu has a lot of training into the importance of stances and footwork drills which are more then a dozen types.
This is because Kung-Fu students gain a bigger advantage through this type of training giving them vider variety to deal with as many combat situations available to them.
So today when you learn Shaolin Kung-Fu of any stlye which brings various patterns with different forms and stances you inherit the very beginnings of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development.

Little Demon

[LittleDemon]

foundations of kung fu

The Foundation Of Shaoling Kung-Fu

Hand forms, stances and basic patterns

"Today when you elarn a Shaolin Kung-Fu set, which incorporates numerous patterns with different hand forms and stances, you innherit the crystiallization of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development".

Wong Kiew Kit



Inheritance from past masters

through the different centuries masters of kung-fu have found that certain methods of atttack of defence have real advantages in combat situations. They found that punching at waist level gave them more power then if they punched at shoulder height. Having better balance means kicks could be executed forcefully then if they kicked with no balance.

Movements of the hands in a circular motion meant masters were able to minimize their opponents strength when blocking pucnhing attacks.
Shifting in body weight to go backwards in a certain stance meant they could avoid kicks without moving their legs back.
These movements, gave them technical advantages in fights.
These were formed into what is now known as the different Kung-Fu stlyes.

The first Kung-Fu patterns were developed through long years of trial and error.
Later when early masters had distinguished enough patterns of many different styles to formulate the principles and theories, study and experimenting had a very important aspect in the intervention of more patterns.
With the trials and errors that occurred with the experiments, masters discovered that in addition to punching stright from the waist they could also strike using swining arms, or use an elbow to strike with.
also masters found that striking an opponent with a swinging arm was onyl desirable to attack with if their arms were strong and the opponent in question was some distance away from them.
If their arms were weaker and didnt hold the suffiecient strength or or if their opponent was in closer range then the elbow would be a better choice of weapon.
From these trials of experiments a body of principles and theories for fighting were established and this gave was for new patterns to emerge with the right principles, perhaps not actually for fighting but for study and speculation from training these experimental theories with their students.

Early masters learned invaluable study material through their own lessons and taking an interest of movements of animals and birds.
Don't laugh at this aspect because apart from being mentally superior to animals we are very far behind animals in terms of natural defensive functions of our bodies, we lack sensual perception and puire survival instinct.

The power of a tiger, the endurnace of an Ox and the precisivness of an eagleare proverbial.
Evan small animals and creatures such as the mighty ant i call them mighty because they can carry 8 times their own body weight and they have such a subtle and delicate body yet its so strong.

Needless to say animals had a huge influence on the masters creating what is now known as Shaolin Kung_Fu. Shaolin monastery was the first known institution allowed to study and promote the forms and skills of Kung-Fu also to study and promote the forms and skills with professionalism and in a systemmatic way.
Shaolin has remained to this day a leading figure behind the art that is Kung-Fu.
Hence Kung-Fu reached a fine level for instance many martial arts styles train a clenched fist as their main derogative of defence, whereas Kung-Fu has about 20 different forms for attacks trained by the hands of Shaolin practiotioners, also while a lot of martial arts pay little attention to the way their students stance is held, Kung-Fu has a lot of training into the importance of stances and footwork drills which are more then a dozen types.
This is because Kung-Fu students gain a bigger advantage through this type of training giving them vider variety to deal with as many combat situations available to them.
So today when you learn Shaolin Kung-Fu of any stlye which brings various patterns with different forms and stances you inherit the very beginnings of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development.


Little demon

[konghan]

The Foundation Of Shaoling Kung-Fu

Hand forms, stances and basic patterns

"Today when you learn a Shaolin Kung-Fu set, which incorporates numerous patterns with different hand forms and stances, you innherit the crystiallization of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development".

Wong Kiew Kit



Inheritance from past masters

through the different centuries masters of kung-fu have found that certain methods of atttack of defence have real advantages in combat situations. They found that punching at waist level gave them more power then if they punched at shoulder height. Having better balance means kicks could be executed forcefully then if they kicked with no balance.

Movements of the hands in a circular motion meant masters were able to minimize their opponents strength when blocking pucnhing attacks.
Shifting in body weight to go backwards in a certain stance meant they could avoid kicks without moving their legs back.
These movements, gave them technical advantages in fights.
These were formed into what is now known as the different Kung-Fu stlyes.

The first Kung-Fu patterns were developed through long years of trial and error.
Later when early masters had distinguished enough patterns of many different styles to formulate the principles and theories, study and experimenting had a very important aspect in the intervention of more patterns.
With the trials and errors that occurred with the experiments, masters discovered that in addition to punching stright from the waist they could also strike using swining arms, or use an elbow to strike with.
also masters found that striking an opponent with a swinging arm was onyl desirable to attack with if their arms were strong and the opponent in question was some distance away from them.
If their arms were weaker and didnt hold the suffiecient strength or or if their opponent was in closer range then the elbow would be a better choice of weapon.
From these trials of experiments a body of principles and theories for fighting were established and this gave was for new patterns to emerge with the right principles, perhaps not actually for fighting but for study and speculation from training these experimental theories with their students.

Early masters learned invaluable study material through their own lessons and taking an interest of movements of animals and birds.
Don't laugh at this aspect because apart from being mentally superior to animals we are very far behind animals in terms of natural defensive functions of our bodies, we lack sensual perception and puire survival instinct.

The power of a tiger, the endurnace of an Ox and the precisivness of an eagleare proverbial.
Evan small animals and creatures such as the mighty ant i call them mighty because they can carry 8 times their own body weight and they have such a subtle and delicate body yet its so strong.

Needless to say animals had a huge influence on the masters creating what is now known as Shaolin Kung_Fu. Shaolin monastery was the first known institution allowed to study and promote the forms and skills of Kung-Fu also to study and promote the forms and skills with professionalism and in a systemmatic way.
Shaolin has remained to this day a leading figure behind the art that is Kung-Fu.
Hence Kung-Fu reached a fine level for instance many martial arts styles train a clenched fist as their main derogative of defence, whereas Kung-Fu has about 20 different forms for attacks trained by the hands of Shaolin practiotioners, also while a lot of martial arts pay little attention to the way their students stance is held, Kung-Fu has a lot of training into the importance of stances and footwork drills which are more then a dozen types.
This is because Kung-Fu students gain a bigger advantage through this type of training giving them vider variety to deal with as many combat situations available to them.
So today when you learn Shaolin Kung-Fu of any stlye which brings various patterns with different forms and stances you inherit the very beginnings of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development.

Little Demon

Not only that, kung fu, espacially shao lin was design basically for health purposes. In other words, kung fu can be consider 3-1 package, 1) health, 2) self defense & 3) combat.

[LittleDemon]

foundations of kung fu

The Foundation Of Shaoling Kung-Fu

Hand forms, stances and basic patterns

"Today when you elarn a Shaolin Kung-Fu set, which incorporates numerous patterns with different hand forms and stances, you innherit the crystiallization of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development".

Wong Kiew Kit



Inheritance from past masters

through the different centuries masters of kung-fu have found that certain methods of atttack of defence have real advantages in combat situations. They found that punching at waist level gave them more power then if they punched at shoulder height. Having better balance means kicks could be executed forcefully then if they kicked with no balance.

Movements of the hands in a circular motion meant masters were able to minimize their opponents strength when blocking pucnhing attacks.
Shifting in body weight to go backwards in a certain stance meant they could avoid kicks without moving their legs back.
These movements, gave them technical advantages in fights.
These were formed into what is now known as the different Kung-Fu stlyes.

The first Kung-Fu patterns were developed through long years of trial and error.
Later when early masters had distinguished enough patterns of many different styles to formulate the principles and theories, study and experimenting had a very important aspect in the intervention of more patterns.
With the trials and errors that occurred with the experiments, masters discovered that in addition to punching stright from the waist they could also strike using swining arms, or use an elbow to strike with.
also masters found that striking an opponent with a swinging arm was onyl desirable to attack with if their arms were strong and the opponent in question was some distance away from them.
If their arms were weaker and didnt hold the suffiecient strength or or if their opponent was in closer range then the elbow would be a better choice of weapon.
From these trials of experiments a body of principles and theories for fighting were established and this gave was for new patterns to emerge with the right principles, perhaps not actually for fighting but for study and speculation from training these experimental theories with their students.

Early masters learned invaluable study material through their own lessons and taking an interest of movements of animals and birds.
Don't laugh at this aspect because apart from being mentally superior to animals we are very far behind animals in terms of natural defensive functions of our bodies, we lack sensual perception and puire survival instinct.

The power of a tiger, the endurnace of an Ox and the precisivness of an eagleare proverbial.
Evan small animals and creatures such as the mighty ant i call them mighty because they can carry 8 times their own body weight and they have such a subtle and delicate body yet its so strong.

Needless to say animals had a huge influence on the masters creating what is now known as Shaolin Kung_Fu. Shaolin monastery was the first known institution allowed to study and promote the forms and skills of Kung-Fu also to study and promote the forms and skills with professionalism and in a systemmatic way.
Shaolin has remained to this day a leading figure behind the art that is Kung-Fu.
Hence Kung-Fu reached a fine level for instance many martial arts styles train a clenched fist as their main derogative of defence, whereas Kung-Fu has about 20 different forms for attacks trained by the hands of Shaolin practiotioners, also while a lot of martial arts pay little attention to the way their students stance is held, Kung-Fu has a lot of training into the importance of stances and footwork drills which are more then a dozen types.
This is because Kung-Fu students gain a bigger advantage through this type of training giving them vider variety to deal with as many combat situations available to them.
So today when you learn Shaolin Kung-Fu of any stlye which brings various patterns with different forms and stances you inherit the very beginnings of hundreds of years of Kung-Fu development.

[LittleDemon]

postings grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

sorry guys my comp fu**ed up causing me to post it more then once *bashes modem with amy's mallet from sonic X*

[sherwinc]

Not only that, kung fu, espacially shao lin was design basically for health purposes. In other words, kung fu can be consider 3-1 package, 1) health, 2) self defense & 3) combat.

its a 4-1 package:
1) health
2) self defense
3) combat
&...
4) a set pattern(kun) for everyday living like for example:
a) set pattern for cooking (your kungfu is good in cooking)
b) farming, household chores, washing clothes, everyday living, guitar, etc..... theres a set pattern on it.... even rifle bionet......

[konghan]

That is why people learn kung fu for different reason, many want to learn fighting & get disappointed when they can`t learn it fast enough, others learn kung fu becuase they want to pocess or be part of an ancient art of priceless bueaty, some learn kung fu for curiosity, others want to become great masters, others to be part of a tradition & to some its all of the above.

[Nothingness]

I just got back in reality after living too long in North America. If you live in Southeast Asia, this thread will sound totally ridiculous. There is no repressed desire to fight; people here fight on the regular basis to defend themselves.

I talked to my master and one of my seniors. They had to take attackers down just last month.

In here, kungfu is a real defense to keep you alive.

[HuSanYan]

I just got back in reality after living too long in North America. If you live in Southeast Asia, this thread will sound totally ridiculous. There is no repressed desire to fight; people here fight on the regular basis to defend themselves.

I talked to my master and one of my seniors. They had to take attackers down just last month.

In here, kungfu is a real defense to keep you alive.

excellent point Nothingness

[Dim Wit Moc]

Nothingness and HuSanYan: I couldn't agree with you more. Even though I have lived in North America all my life, I have talked to many people who confirm what you are saying. I also know a little history. Kung Fu has never been a game, but knowledge which literally holds the power of life and death. Those who walked away, won, and those who didn't walk away were often dead. The ignorance of those who do not give Kung Fu the great respect it deserves is very apparent.

I respect others martial ways and I do not think it is too much to ask for them to do the same.

[Broadsword2004]

Okay I am new in here I just wanted to say a few corrections on things I think people have been wrong about; also, I am going to give a few rants on things, I need a place to rant

Sherwin, from what I know, Jeet Kune Do is NOT a spin-off or modified version of Wing Chun, that is a common misconception, and yes it does incorporate taekwondo and/or karate somewhat. And yes traditional taekwondo and karate, if trained properly, are very effective.

Tom Yum, in regards to your description of Joe Lewis fighting the stiff karate guy, I think that is the more B.S. misunderstood karate. Now I could be totally 100% wrong on this, but I believe that Muhummad Ali, the legendary boxer, was a blackbelt in karate and it was his karate footwork training that allowed him to move in such ways that most boxers had never encoutnered before. Traditional boxing footwork was no match for the karate footwork. Karate, remember, is a real martial art, a real fighting art, it was used to fight people with. No way they would have fought each other in stiff forms-like stances.

And in regards to forms, I think this is for Thai Bri on his forms questioning, and maybe someone stated this already, if so, I missed it, but not all forms are just for training coordination and so forth. Many forms rely tremendously on internal strength and require the practitioner to build up the strength of the internal organs before learning them. If a younger, less experienced practioner without the proper internal training and strength does learn or attempt to learn them, the hard breathing may go so far as to rupture one of the internal organs because it is so stressful. They will rely on the external too much, lacking the internal training. This is where certain forms training, although appearing to be non-sense, actually have great application in terms of giving one internal power and strength.

As for contemporary wushu, WHY THE HECK CAN'T PEOPLE JUST CALL IT A MARTIAL-PERFORMANCE ART!?!? Cuz that's what it is. Heck, there are lots of performing arts that are related to or derived off of martial arts. Many staff-twirling arts stole their techniques for manipulating the staff from the martial arts; I guess some people just said, "hey, this is fun, let's do this instead of just fighting." The Russian Hopac dance is partially grounded in martial applications. And some Ukrainian dances are grounded in fighting as well. Contemporary wushu is a martial-performance art too; a performing art that is based off of martial arts. The modern sport of gymnastics was derived out of martial arts training in a way; it is strength training. Handstands, flips, planches, stuff like working on rings to do handstands, iron crosses, muscle-ups which are a real killer, etc....the vault, which has the sprinting-----all of that is real, true strength training that builds up real functional strength that warriors and fighters used to do to develop balance and agility and such. Just, over time, people decided to turn gymnastics training into a sport, which is fine. The original Olympics, in Greece, was a place for warriors and athletes alike to show off their strength and fighting skills; back in the early days of gymnastics, track & field events, from running to discus throwing and javelin, were all part of the sport. Then they separated into modern gymnastics and modern track & field.

But I don't get why so many people try to claim wushu is a martial art and that those who practice it (contemporary wushu) are martial artists. Sole contemporary wushu practice is not martial art practice.

And now also, I don't get why so many people into reality-based fighting have to knock flashy martial arts that have jumping kicks and such, like taekwondo, contemporary wushu, etc.....those arts are very excellent cross training if one wants to keep fit and healthy. Sure, they won't teach you to fight, but being able to execute jump spinning kicks and 540 jump kicks and butterfly twists will keep you limber and flexible for long periods of time, which is great if one wants to be able to fight well for a long time (as in many years I mean) or at least feel good at old age anyhow. I hate these "martial artists" who are all big and fat and overweight, can't even do a split which shows their poor leg strength, yet they act like they teach people to do "real" fighting, or that they are some high-ranking master. Not all are like that, but a lot sure are. And I dislike these martial artists who absolutely HATE flash. What is wrong with some flash in the art, to spice it up some or add some good cross-training for coordination or whatever. An art evolves over the years. People say, well this martial art is thousands of years old or hundreds. It should not be changed, that is a disrespect to the art. I'm sure it evolved over the hundreds of years it was around. So it can continue to evolve a little. Flash added to a martial art is fine, as long as everyone knows it is just for cross-training and not for fighting. I think it is this stubborness that creates so many martial artists who are very inflexible and have poor technique and strength. And by flash, I mean like a few jumping kicks and so forth, I don't mean stupid self-defense combinations that would never work. I know this isn't the case for all martial artists though. Just I hate the ones who aren't in shape, but knock people who are in great shape and can jump around doing flashy kicks. Flashy kicks are dfficult to learn and require discipline, so I get mad about those out-of-shape people who act like they do the real stuff when in reality the flashy person could probably still kick their butt.

Also, a person can know both flashy moves and be able to fight; maybe not be a master of both, but one can certainly be able to do both. I don't get why everyone acts like if someone can do jump kicks, they can't fight.

Okay, those are my rants right now

[IPON]

Sherwin, from what I know, Jeet Kune Do is NOT a spin-off or modified version of Wing Chun

It was not modified WC but it was a modified version of teh WC that Bruce Lee Learned. JKD as taught in Seattle Oakland and LA is over 70% WC techniques. While I will maintain JKD is a philosphy, but if argue there is no WC in JKD you have been greatly misinformed

Now I could be totally 100% wrong on this, but I believe that Muhummad Ali, the legendary boxer, was a blackbelt in karate and it was his karate footwork training that allowed him to move in such ways that most boxers had never encoutnered before.

I think that you are more than 100% incorrect. I don't recall Ali ever training in Karate much less recieving a Dan grade. The footwork has absolurely nothing to do with Katrate and you must not have studied either if this is you opinion.

As for contemporary wushu, WHY THE HECK CAN'T PEOPLE JUST CALL IT A MARTIAL-PERFORMANCE ART!?!?

And now also, I don't get why so many people into reality-based fighting have to knock flashy martial arts that have jumping kicks and such, like taekwondo, contemporary wushu, etc

We this seems a bit contradictory. WuShu is an art that what it means no. These are not all performers in the Peking theatre by your logic I could call TKD a martial performace art as well


Anyway that's all I feel like typing.

[Boxing Master]

Ali's footwork and Karate footwork vs. Boxing footwork

Broadsword2004,

1. Muhammad Ali did not study Karate. His footwork was either of his own design, or he was trained in it by trainers who had learned it from Filipino boxers and trainers. Rumor has it that Filipino boxers and trainers had borrowed footwork from Eskrima and adapted it to Boxing. If he had studied other MA's it would have been documented. The post on this subject is on the Filipino MA forum about Ali's footwork.

2. Show me in either theory or application where Karate footwork is superior to Boxing footwork. Do not get me wrong, Karate has many exceptional techinques, but to say that it is superior without any true justification is unsound. I have read Karate books and I do not see any special advantage that they may have in footwork. One of Boxing's strengths is footwork, as it can be seen in the careers of many great fighters(Jack Johnson, Gene Fullmer, James J. Corbett, Willie Pastrano, Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roy Jones Jr., Sugar Ray Robinson, etc.)
A Boxer who has excellent footwork is extremely difficult to hit and/or get a hand on(which is unfortunate in today's Boxing, due to the lack of great footwork in today's fighters, other than Roy Jones Jr. and a few others)

A short list of Boxing footwork(Not in entirety)

Sliding Steps(Standard footwork to either attack or evade, long and short steps, forward, lateral, backward, and at angles in between)

Lunging Steps(Using to set up power punches especially to the body i.e. Mike Tyson in his prime (1986-1990))

Pivoting(Used to evade an advancing opponent and/or improve punching angles)

Foot Shuffling(Movement around opponents in a fast manner and can be used to set up or evade opponents, i.e. Ali(1962-1967))

[sherwinc]

It was not modified WC but it was a modified version of teh WC that Bruce Lee Learned. JKD as taught in Seattle Oakland and LA is over 70% WC techniques. While I will maintain JKD is a philosphy, but if argue there is no WC in JKD you have been greatly misinformed

I think this is very true......

but one of my sparring opponent said that BruceLee invented Jeet Kune Do for him to make money as a some sort of commercializing, and with his new invented martial art he can earn money and high reputation to be the well-known later (cause he has a tremendous speed and power making him the only compatible to his own invented art)

and my sparring opponent also said that that the reason why there's no better/best Jeet Kune Do fighter ever known from the time that art Jeet Kune Do invented and up to now - theres no best Jeet Kune Do fighter except Bruce Lee himself, cause thru his speed and power are compatible to his new invented art for commerce......

that is his comment to me after i said to him that Bruce Lee movie art is Jeet Kune Do while his Actual/Streetfight is WingChun.....