Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

[darrianation]

Why KF is not effective for SD

I believe that the insurgence of modern incarnations of MMA has blown the theory oriented Traditional MAs out of the water. In MMAs competitions these guys take throery and put it to the test. They take the effective things from several MAs and dump what doesn't work, they care about "fighting." they don't try to sugar-coat anything and the don't claim that you can win a wild melee by redirecting the opponent's chi or fighting from a traditional stance with your hands held at waist level.

Again with many modern MAs they began to understand and incorporate advances in exercise physiology and sport science and discovered that several of the traditional training methods that are being used by traditional systems are wasteful and non-productive. They embarked on performance enhancement both for ring sports as well as self-defense.

Traditional MAs because of their hierarchical structures don't encourage, experimentation, dynamic changes, and thinking outside the box. Basically the founder some 80 years ago, 100 years, or 1000 years ago did this and said that so their followers do the same.

Kata, forms, pre-arranged sparring, limited sparring by either light contact or no contact to the head, punching from waist level, complicated intricate patterns and movements all lend to false or non-productive training. One of the worst sins that the traditional MAs commit is its lack of attention to fight psycology. When fear and adrenaline hit, it can take a toll on our fine motor ability, but in KF many movements are those of fine motor skills.

Another miss-placed concept in Chinese kung fu is they think more is better. Knowing a thousand techniques must be better than knowing ten when sports science is telling us this is not true. When adrenaline and fear hits knowing a large number of techniques can lead to confusion, two or three movements can be sent via the central nervous system and can confuse and paralyze neural muscular systems. Simply put the less a person has to think about and the fewer tasks he has to perform while under stress the better.

Another problem: The weapons are the same as they were and are still practiced as they were. Today training with broadswords and spears may be fun but they are not practical for today’s threats. Guns, knives, and handy to carry and easily concealable weapons are what you have to look out for and train with.

Add all this together and what do you have? Out dated theories in a modern and violent world. There are better systems out there to deal with today’s modern complex problems. KF hasn't embraced or incorperated new training methods, modern weapons and technology. Kung Fu is not on the leading edge of modern combat and hasn’t been in a long time.

[darrianation]

The verdict

My conclusion: Taking the facts from above into account and applying them to modern sports science, combat psycology, and kinesiology under stress I here by find Kung Fu guilty of being mystical, theatrical, but by no means practical!

[konghan]

My conclusion: Taking the facts from above into account and applying them to modern sports science, combat psycology, and kinesiology under stress I here by find Kung Fu guilty of being mystical, theatrical, but by no means practical!

Just like accupuncture & herbal medicine. The west have problem accepting it although it has already been a proven fact that chinese medicine works.

In martial art, the west is again having a hard time doing the chinese way so they they come up with their own studies that are basically disected from kung fu & declare it their own & at the same time proclaiming kung fu is "hocus pocus" When in fact modern western martial arts develop from "stealing techniques from kung fu" & converted for commercial purposes. Countries like Japan who have shared culture & tradition know how to honor & pay due rspect as to where their martial art originated from.

The fact is the west always have difficulty accepting anything from the orient. That is why kung fu just ignore all this criticism & continue to develop on its own & yet it is still not enough, western minded still insist that we kung fu fighters, athletes & affectionados should give up kung fu & embrace western martial art.

The west is more concern on developing what they can control commercially, what they can`t they`ll try to destroy their competetitors.

When the west see something that is a threat to their claim of superiority immidiately with the use of all form of control media they`ll go out & wage a psycholigical warfare.

I have personally proven that Kung Fu works both in the streets & in the ring tournament where in I fought with kick boxers, boxers, TKD & karatekas & hopefully I`ll be able to proove that once more.

[guy incognito]

Darr. what is your experience with Kung fu.What youve seen in movies or actuall study of KF.(Note no disrespect intended just like to know what you base your comments on)

[darrianation]

It’s not always about KF my tiff is about Traditional MAs in general, and a lot about KF. My experience with it is having friends who can talk philosophy and theory all day but their conclusions are very misplaced. I have fought and sparred many KF practitioners and you know what they fight like the karate guys, the kenpo guys, and etc. I know you don’t want to here this but I am tired of hearing about the secrets of chi/ki or about some ol’ obscure master who defeated 20 men half his age using only one finger. These are myths they are not real. Too many (not all) live in the realm of mystical arts not the martial arts.

I don’t think anyone should stop doing any MA that they enjoy. I also think that any system that teaches you how to strike the students can be successful at defending themselves. In fact I have seen people with absolutely no training at all be incredibly successful against untrained and trained MAs alike.

People think because some MA borrowed from some other MA or took techniques from 2 or 3 other MAs then it must not be as good as the parent art. This is the wrong way to think, the parent art may have had some good things and some bad. The new art took the best things from the old art and maybe from other arts too. After a while other new arts do the same thing and so on. Some of these new arts employ the latest in technology and weaponry and test and retest their theories in as real an environment as possible and continually shave off the things that don’t work. More and more art is cast off making the art more and more Martial. What is wrong with this?

When people point these problems out the traditionalists get very upset and calls it blasphemy. And say we are just as relevant as we always were. But after closer inspection are the traditionalists really?

Point in fact: In the UFCs and MMA events if KF or Karate was so effective then why don’t the fighters look like KF or Karate? You rarely see if any complicated/intricate strikes. You see jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, and leg kicks. You see BJJ style locks and chokes, wrestling style takedowns and controls. Where do you see the traditional MA stuff? You don’t! There is a reason for this, because they don’t work. Even when a traditional MA fighter gets in the octagon the stuff they do looks nothing like the art they represent, why? Because it doesn’t work.

Take a good look at the violent crimes going on around us. Here in the states you can be attacked just walking out to your mail box, and no one uses just hands and feet anymore its knives, baseball bats, multiple attackers, and guns. These assaults are often criminal assaults where serious bodily harm or death can occur.

Modern MAs that deal or claim to be SD systems need to more direct and to the point, and understand the serious nature of today’s violent crimes. Psychology, weapons, techniques, and training methods need to be task specific. That means Martial not art.

One of the biggest problems with the Traditional MAs is when it comes to self-defense they are typically built around a model of predictability. In class everyone attacks predictably, defends predictably, and reacts predictably. But in real combat there is no real predictability. This is dangerous!

Soon after the first punch is thrown fights fall apart, game plans are nullified by unpredictability and uncertain circumstances. Fighting the unpredictable fighter and changing dynamics of a fight is exactly what Traditional MAs do not prepare you for. Modern MAs Attempt to do this and some do a very good job and they do it in half the time that a traditional MA can do it.

So are the traditional MAs still relevant? Yes, traditional MAs are still relevant for the feel gooders, the fat plumpers who want to get into shape, the brittle children, and the geritol nation. But for the rest of us who want real practical SD then they are inferior to modern incarnations of martial arts that are more scientific, realistic, and effective.

* Note: When I say traditional MAs I am not just talking about KF but Karate, TKD, Kenpo, and all the rest. All have some good things, but they are far from efficient.

Let me leave you with some of my favorite quotes:

Traditional MAs- “They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems." Peyton Quinn

"What I do in the street is effective AS A RESULT OF WHAT I'VE THROWN AWAY. In other words I have stripped my martial arts down to its barest constituent minimum, so as to work 99% of the time." Jim Wagner


"STOP overcomplicating this shit! It's NOT brain surgery, it ain't rocket science. This is NO sunday women's club coffee clatch. BUT THAT'S HOW IT's BEING PRESENTED! WAKE the F**K UP! A real FIGHT is like being dropped into a MEAT GRINDER! I don't give a rat's ass HOW GOOD you think you are or what a BADASS you think you are, when the shit goes south for REAL and I mean against REAL enemies with real intent and murder in their hearts, well, your SORRY ASS is in a world of deep SHIT! So if you think that bitch slapping some punk or knocking the local yokel drunk on his ass qualifies as being for REAL, well you don't know jack and I got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn". Carl Cestari

[konghan]

I like to add, before martial art became so saturated. The west were in the dark. The only way they know how to fight is the use of their two fist ( boxing). Thats` it. They didn`t even have what we have now physical theraphy. Its all about oral medication, or injection of powerful drugs that only cause long term health problems. After martial art came out in the open, western capitalism didn`t waste anytime to capitalise on this fortune to quickly take control. But kung fu refused to be control, so "established" western institution begun to conduct their own medical investigation on how to improve the physical well being of "none oreintal people". But their studies were all base on chinese findings. The thing is kung fu never had any plans to commercialise the art but the plan was to share it to all those who wish to learn & embrace it.

The bottom line is its all about control of this "lucrative market." Thats` why every athlete who wish to get recognition & fight in organize tournaments have to pay their dues & must come under their control.

In kung fu, one doesn`t have to go public, get all kinds of commercial exposure to rpoof oneself. Its all about humility & humbleness, their skills can well be tested in private none commercial tournaments or fights infront of well recognize kung fu masters. In its not only about being good in combat but it is also about understanding kung fu, & character.

A good example of conflict in findings between western research & oriental is in stretching: physical therapist all say that stretching must be done by holding down not explosive or vibrating type of stretching. But majority of chinese kung fu athletes do the explosive type of stretching & for centuries they have proven that their is no long term ill health problems. But, we know that in the west for centuries they don`t or have little knowledge about the relationship of stretching & flexibility in fighting.

The only stretching that they do is in gymnastic.

[darrianation]

I like to add, before martial art became so saturated. The west were in the dark. The only way they know how to fight is the use of their two fist ( boxing). Thats` it. They didn`t even have what we have now physical theraphy. Its all about oral medication, or injection of powerful drugs that only cause long term health problems. After martial art came out in the open, western capitalism didn`t waste anytime to capitalise on this fortune to quickly take control. But kung fu refused to be control, so "established" western institution begun to conduct their own medical investigation on how to improve the physical well being of "none oreintal people". But their studies were all base on chinese findings. The thing is kung fu never had any plans to commercialise the art but the plan was to share it to all those who wish to learn & embrace it.

The bottom line is its all about control of this "lucrative market." Thats` why every athlete who wish to get recognition & fight in organize tournaments have to pay their dues & must come under their control.

In kung fu, one doesn`t have to go public, get all kinds of commercial exposure to rpoof oneself. Its all about humility & humbleness, their skills can well be tested in private none commercial tournaments or fights infront of well recognize kung fu masters. In its not only about being good in combat but it is also about understanding kung fu, & character.

A good example of conflict in findings between western research & oriental is in stretching: physical therapist all say that stretching must be done by holding down not explosive or vibrating type of stretching. But majority of chinese kung fu athletes do the explosive type of stretching & for centuries they have proven that their is no long term ill health problems. But, we know that in the west for centuries they don`t or have little knowledge about the relationship of stretching & flexibility in fighting.

The only stretching that they do is in gymnastic.

When it comes to commercialism you are very right about that!

[sherwinc]

Another miss-placed concept in Chinese kung fu is they think more is better. Knowing a thousand techniques must be better than knowing ten when sports science is telling us this is not true. When adrenaline and fear hits knowing a large number of techniques can lead to confusion, two or three movements can be sent via the central nervous system and can confuse and paralyze neural muscular systems. Simply put the less a person has to think about and the fewer tasks he has to perform while under stress the better.

how about if MMA Sword versus KungFu Straight Sword??????

if you hit just once with kungfu sword, even thou how big you your - instant death/defeat is the result.....

then you can say "More technique is better than few"

especially twin broadswords with red flag attached to the broadswords handle......

Another problem: The weapons are the same as they were and are still practiced as they were. Today training with broadswords and spears may be fun but they are not practical for today’s threats. Guns, knives, and handy to carry and easily concealable weapons are what you have to look out for and train with.

Yes, you are true, but it is illegal to carry guns, knives at our world now, but here in the Philippines most of the people in the barrio here carry balisong knives, bolo, etc... legally......

and i too - i almost carry everywhere i go an umbrella with a two big needle attached to the tip of my umbrella,

and using my umbrella i can use my kungfu sword techniques incorporating to my improvised umbrella - making my umbrella looks innocent but when it hit you in the neck - a two big needles with surely dig your adam's apple......

Note:
even thou you cannot carry kungfu sword, saber, tri-sectional staff, etc.... you can use umbrella, etc... as a substitution of weapon.....

i have seen a lot of street fights and i frequently notice that most of the favorite weapons of the stupid trouble makers here in our place is a Stone, they usually get a big stone and thrown at your head..... not to mention their company who hand a stick they get from anywhere.....

so, if you are not trained to weild weapons ( arnis is the most highly demand weapon cause it is easy to find sticks besides you ).... but for me, instead of using arnis, my favorite is KungFu Sword and KungFu Sabers using my improvised umbrella or any wooden sticks that i find besides me.....

[KSD]

hahahahahahahahaha

[sherwinc]

hahahahahahahahaha

and when you hit with my twin needles attached to the tip of my umbrella at your adams apple, how about if you survive???? but, can you eat happy????

no!!!!, cause it is a very painful to swallow food while it is already puncture by my twin needles.....

learning KungFu weapons is a recommended thing.......

HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW

[krys]

LOL I bring chakus in malls guards will not even notice it i will just cover it with a towel ang shirt. This is popular weapon to chinese in frat wars compare to balison,chaku can stop someone in one swing to the neck and more harder to evade.

I bring small indonesian knives and pocket sticks into malls (I write from a mall in Makati carrying them), guards don't notice them too.... pocket sticks are very nice because you can't be arrested for their possession.
You can strike with them by surprise and run away quickly, peoples won't even realise you used a weapon...

[darrianation]

[QUOTE=krys] pocket sticks are very nice QUOTE]

Krys shame on you! Is that your pick up line, You walk up to a girl in the mall and tell her how nice your pocket stick is? you probably can get arrested for that.

[darrianation]

[QUOTE=sherwinc]

how about if MMA Sword versus KungFu Straight Sword??????

HMMMM…. I never heard of MMA swords, what are they? I was just using the MMA guys as an example of efficient economy of motion. They are not fancy (although some try to be, but very few can pull it off) they use what works and believe me if that fancy complicated stuff you see in many traditional MAs worked, you would see it in the MMAs competitions like the UFCs.

and i too - i almost carry everywhere i go an umbrella with a two big needle attached to the tip of my umbrella,

Okay now the umbrella thing is kinda’ of weird but if you use it for SD how often do you train with your umbrella in KF class? Is it a traditional weapon of the Chinese?

Note:
even thou you cannot carry kungfu sword, saber, tri-sectional staff, etc.... you can use umbrella, etc... as a substitution of weapon.....

Then why spend time training in something you will not use? Efforts should be placed into weapons and techniques you will use. Also of importance is they way or method of training.

i have seen a lot of street fights and i frequently notice that most of the favorite weapons of the stupid trouble makers here in our place is a Stone, they usually get a big stone and thrown at your head..... not to mention their company who hand a stick they get from anywhere.....

As a former military person stationed at Subic I have been shot at and have had grenades thrown at me. I have chased communist insurgence through the jungles a time or two just to be ambushed by several nasty weapons.

In 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo near ANGELES CITY in the PHILIPPINES I was sent there to provide security to protect Clark AFB from looters. While on station I had someone grab my weapon, and try to take it from me, he wasn’t successful might I add but I found the PI to be a dangerous place at least for American service men. Of course there is a Lot of wonder people there too. I always liked the people there.

Any way sherwinc we have been down this road before, what is left to be said that hasn’t been said already?

[darrianation]

Konghan,

Both western and traditional Asian science, has neglected the field of sports science for a very long time. Science and technology has just begun to catch up. Traditional Asian medicine is an amazing thing but like western medicine is far from perfect. When new evidence comes along that something doesn’t work, or something else works better than we re-think our theories, methods, and policies unlike the Traditional MAs, regardless of evidence and new technologies they keep marching on like they always have.

As far as Traditional Asian and modern western medicine goes I think a blend of both to be far superior to just one alone.

Another problem with traditional MAs is that they rely a lot on technique, or in other words they are very technique oriented, but the methodologies used for training them are faulty. They use predetermined and orchestrated reactions to specific theoretical threats that lack realism. It’s not the techniques themselves that are necessarily objectionable; it’s more the methodologies of teaching them.

A system that is built for combat and I mean real down and dirty fighting for ones life, needs to develop personal fighting attributes to survive under very extreme conditions. The system needs to be hell bent on eliminating fear, and adverse adrenaline responses. Through:

1) Psychological training
2) Performance enhancement
3) Attribute development.

System that have been developed (although not perfect) that address these issues are those designed for combat, such as R.O.S.S., W.E. Fairbairn, Styers, and Applegate for example.

In essence the techniques are last or even may I say the least important. I have always said and I maintain that the most important aspect of self-defense is mental conditioning.
My short list:

1) Mental toughness and conditioning
2) Physical toughness strength/conditioning
3) Developing and improving natural attributes of the fighter
4) Proper training of techniques, use proper methodologies
5) The actual techniques.

Not many traditional MAs at least none that I have seen or heard of concentrate on these modalities. They prefer to live in theory, and develop technique and the mechanics of the techniques which is important but you need to do more. Remember it’s not the techniques that win fights because any one technique from any number of systems out there can potentially end a fight; it’s the effective application of those techniques that win fights.

So the training needs to be concentrated to developing effective application. The traditional MAs spend far too much time and energy in training the wrong aspects of fighting.

[darrianation]

Sorry I just wanted to add,

Not only has sports science been neglected but combat psychlology has been neglected by science as well. We are still learning new and interesting things and playng catch up.