Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

[sherwinc]

Okay now the umbrella thing is kinda’ of weird but if you use it for SD how often do you train with your umbrella in KF class? Is it a traditional weapon of the Chinese?

for almost 6 years and until now, i still practicing my selected light umbrella as a substitute for my KungFu sword.....

Umbrella is not a traditional weapon of the Chinese but due to illegal position of carrying swords unto city, and thats the reason why..... why i choose umbrella as a substitute.....

Then why spend time training in something you will not use? Efforts should be placed into weapons and techniques you will use. Also of importance is they way or method of training.

i have a sharp KungFu Straight Sword w/long tassle at my home purposes only, since the law here in Phils - once you kill a theif inside your house - it is legal....

you know, all the techniques of KungFu Straight Sword - most of its techniques you can still use to with the use of light umbrella if you only know how......

example:
in an Arnis Stick - it is actually Tres-Cantos bladed stick, but due to illegal possession when carrying in public - carrying of such Arnis Stick as a substitute is legal......

Advice:
my advice is..... you must learn kungfu in order for you to know the right answers which you dont know yet.........

[jmd161]

Umbrella is not a traditional weapon of the Chinese but due to illegal position of carrying swords unto city, and thats the reason why..... why i choose umbrella as a substitute.....

Uhh EXCUSE ME!! umbrella is a traditional chinese weapon. It's just not in all styles.

jeff

[sherwinc]

Uhh EXCUSE ME!! umbrella is a traditional chinese weapon. It's just not in all styles.

jeff

i think it is true...... cause i sometimes seen in a documentary series in National Geographic Channel that even Flute, Long Fans, etc.... are all used as a specialized weapon..... even Bench.....

there is some members here in Defend.net who knows how to use KungFu Bench as a weapon......

even three heavy iron Boading Balls is also used as a weapon.... to throw to opponent in a short distance, it missed, hit the wall, drop to the ground, then get the ball again and throw again to opponent in a short distance....

[jmd161]

i think it is true...... cause i sometimes seen in a documentary series in National Geographic Channel that even Flute, Long Fans, etc.... are all used as a specialized weapon..... even Bench.....

there is some members here in Defend.net who knows how to use KungFu Bench as a weapon......

even three heavy iron Boading Balls is also used as a weapon.... to throw to opponent in a short distance, it missed, hit the wall, drop to the ground, then get the ball again and throw again to opponent in a short distance....

Just to name some of the rare weapons we have in Black Tiger.

1. Chopsticks and Bowl
2. Chinese handcuffs
3. Cymbals
4. Cane
5. Wooden,rattan and Iron Fans
6. Short Stick
7. Bench

Then we have all the other weapons as well.

staffs,swords,chain whips,spears,kwan do,rope dart etc....

jeff

[sherwinc]

Just to name some of the rare weapons we have in Black Tiger.

1. Chopsticks and Bowl
2. Chinese handcuffs
3. Cymbals
4. Cane
5. Wooden,rattan and Iron Fans
6. Short Stick
7. Bench

Then we have all the other weapons as well.

staffs,swords,chain whips,spears,kwan do,rope dart etc....

jeff

most of the KungFu practitioners here who knows kungfu weaponry are very lucky.... cause they know plenty of variety of KungFu weapons.....

me? i only know Tai Chi Chuan Long-Tassled Straight Sword...... since my kungfu instructor doesnt want to teach me Northern KungFu Flexible Ultra-Fast Sword....

Flight Fighting and Ground Fighting is a very important in learning KungFu Weaponry...... switching from one stance to another stance in a quick fashion is also a very important thing......

[yentao]

HMMMM…. I never heard of MMA swords, what are they? I was just using the MMA guys as an example of efficient economy of motion. They are not fancy (although some try to be, but very few can pull it off) they use what works and believe me if that fancy complicated stuff you see in many traditional MAs worked, you would see it in the MMAs competitions like the UFCs.



Okay now the umbrella thing is kinda’ of weird but if you use it for SD how often do you train with your umbrella in KF class? Is it a traditional weapon of the Chinese?



Then why spend time training in something you will not use? Efforts should be placed into weapons and techniques you will use. Also of importance is they way or method of training.



As a former military person stationed at Subic I have been shot at and have had grenades thrown at me. I have chased communist insurgence through the jungles a time or two just to be ambushed by several nasty weapons.

In 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo near ANGELES CITY in the PHILIPPINES I was sent there to provide security to protect Clark AFB from looters. While on station I had someone grab my weapon, and try to take it from me, he wasn’t successful might I add but I found the PI to be a dangerous place at least for American service men. Of course there is a Lot of wonder people there too. I always liked the people there.

Any way sherwinc we have been down this road before, what is left to be said that hasn’t been said already?

You were assigned to Clark? You better not go to Tondo, Manila because some people there will kill you on sight, especially if you have that foreign especially caucasian look (this people believes that every caucasian people are americans). Anyway it is only a warning incase you go there. Why? Because they believed American service men brought diseases like AIDS and other STDs in the Philippines. Also that toxic dumped that you service men left there in CLARK still poisons the people in that area and many people die every year because of it. So you can't blame those people who would want to get back at you.

[konghan]

Sorry I just wanted to add,

Not only has sports science been neglected but combat psychlology has been neglected by science as well. We are still learning new and interesting things and playng catch up.

They are using kung fu as a "speciment" in their studies becuase what they cannot understand is why the worlds largest population are doing kung fu & what make kung fu athletes so agile, flexible & superior fighters against traditional "western boxers"?

Also, kung fu has & is still evolving. Many great masters have been doing their own research in improving kung fu not only as a combat "sport" but further medical & health benefits.

That`s how ngo cho kun was founded it was base on combining the best techniques of 5 great masters & consolidating them into one.

Decendants of ngo cho kun up to the present are still continuing finding ways to improve ngo cho kun kung fu.

The only difference is that in the west their research studies are geared on how to sell their newly discovered "martial art" by claiming that it is better under the expense of kung fu bashing.

A good example is my late Sifu Lo King Hui of Kong Han Athletic Club. He came up with his own herbal formula for treating internal injuries, bruises, bone injuries & muscle problems. But he never had it commercially marketed he use it only personally for treating his students & patients. He also made some modification in ngo cho kun. And i believe that is what most true kung fu masters have & are doing. Their achivements & contribution are well documented & known espacially in their local community.

[darrianation]

Advice:
my advice is..... you must learn kungfu in order for you to know the right answers which you dont know yet.........

No thank you I have better things to do with my time than to learn Kung Fu. Now I wouldn’t mind learning San Shou though.

As far as swords what about machetes I seen a lot of them over there, and also what about knives? I bought at least 20 knives at different times over there?

[darrianation]

You were assigned to Clark? You better not go to Tondo, Manila because some people there will kill you on sight, especially if you have that foreign especially caucasian look (this people believes that every caucasian people are americans). Anyway it is only a warning incase you go there. Why? Because they believed American service men brought diseases like AIDS and other STDs in the Philippines. Also that toxic dumped that you service men left there in CLARK still poisons the people in that area and many people die every year because of it. So you can't blame those people who would want to get back at you.

I was just assigned to Clark to help with it’s evacuation as well as surrounding communities. My main duty station was in San Diego, Cal. Our forward base was Subic Bay Naval station. I Have made several trips into Clark as well as Manilla. Of course I have been lots of other places in the PI as well training in joint exercises with the Philippine Army.

As for he STDs that’s probably true. Those damn Sailors and Marines will put there dick into any hole that’s holds still long enough.

[darrianation]

They are using kung fu as a "speciment" in their studies becuase what they cannot understand is why the worlds largest population are doing kung fu & what make kung fu athletes so agile, flexible & superior fighters against traditional "western boxers"?

Also, kung fu has & is still evolving. Many great masters have been doing their own research in improving kung fu not only as a combat "sport" but further medical & health benefits.

That`s how ngo cho kun was founded it was base on combining the best techniques of 5 great masters & consolidating them into one.

Decendants of ngo cho kun up to the present are still continuing finding ways to improve ngo cho kun kung fu.

The only difference is that in the west their research studies are geared on how to sell their newly discovered "martial art" by claiming that it is better under the expense of kung fu bashing.

A good example is my late Sifu Lo King Hui of Kong Han Athletic Club. He came up with his own herbal formula for treating internal injuries, bruises, bone injuries & muscle problems. But he never had it commercially marketed he use it only personally for treating his students & patients. He also made some modification in ngo cho kun. And i believe that is what most true kung fu masters have & are doing. Their achivements & contribution are well documented & known espacially in their local community.

Konghan You make a lot of good logical arguments.

I have no doubt about some of the effectiveness of some the Kung Fu techniques. I am also blown way about how long it takes to become proficient with some of those systems. Soldiers can be trained to be proficient with firearms, explosives, communications, movement and tactics in a shorter amount of time than it takes a kung Fu practitioner to reach the top end of his art.


After the Chinese began seeing kung Fu dying out as an art form they began to scramble to see what can be done and more styles began to develop. Now I know this was always happening but one of the best things that I have seen come out of Chinese MAs is San Shou.

Here is a list of reasons why many at least in the west are skeptical about the traditional MAs

Stylized difference:

Secret teachings
Masters
Grand masters
Gurus
Ancient secret fighting system
Techniques from animals (we are men lets fight like men, not like grasshoppers)
Kata
Prearranged sparring
Limited contact sparring (targets and or power)
Hierarchical structures
Weapons are not standard in today’s world, and training is like with empty hand, pre-arranged and orchestrated movement
Based in theory, not enough in reality
Resistance to change
Predictability
Commercialism
Technique heavy
Breaking boards
Punching thin air
Time it takes to prefect or master all the techniques and material (50, 20, 10 years is way to long)


Cultural/Art/spiritual:

Control of stress & tension
Wight lose
Building character
Courtesy
Respect
Modesty
Loyalty
Generosity
Healing
Mystical powers
Origins of powers and techniques
Inner tranquility
Developing Chi/ki (in a spiritual sense)
Defend without causing injury to the attacker

*nothing is wrong with these things but they don’t do a lot for the effectiveness of self-defense.

Spots and combat psycology training:

Lack of attention to fight psycology
Lack of adrenaline response training
Re-enforcement of improper neural muscular memory (such as punching form the waist)
Lots of fine motor skill movements
Lot of time spent on perfecting technique but not enough time spent on perfecting effective application

In my best estimate the traditional MAs have about 15% effectiveness and the rest is made up of spiritual, cultural, and stylized differences.

But let me say I am a big fan of San Shou!


This list I made here is by no means complete, and some maybe argued, but this list was made from the perspective of what is efficient for self-defense.

So what makes a good self-defense system?

Bottom-line: No one can teach you true self-defense unless they get into a broad number of subjects that goes beyond philosophy, theory, and physical techniques.

Self-defense list:

Methodologies leading to faster and correct neuromuscular memorization
Experimentation
Dynamic changes
Thinking outside the box
Psychological training
Saying what if
Performance enhancement
Overcoming fear
Attribute development
Mental toughness and conditioning
Physical toughness strength/conditioning
Proper training of techniques, use proper methodologies
Sound gross motor skill techniques.
Mindset
Learning to take hard strikes and keep on fighting
Based in science
Based in reality
Psychology
Physics
Anatomy
Physiology
kinesiology
Techniques in all the combat ranges (weapons, striking, clinching (or trapping), and on the ground
Weapons
Full contact drills
Use of force and the law
Realistic scenario training
Train for the unpredictable
first aide training
Training needs to be as real as possible
Throw out the crap and keep what works.
Keep your weapons locker clean and to the bare minimum
Keep it simple
Awareness skills: Situational awareness and Risk assessment
Learning how to read body language
How to use body language
How not to be a victim in the first place
Dynamic changes in techniques, weapon, philosophy, strategy, and tactics. In other word adopt new technologies and advancements when they come along. The system should never be static.

Prevention- by planning ahead of time! Providing you with your own personal threat assessments and risk evaluation for your home, family, work, travel, and past times/leisure time. Identifying and correct any weaknesses in you security and develop procedures to deal with emergencies.

Use your head- think about what you are doing, who you’re with, where you are, the behaviors you are exhibiting as well as paying attention to the behavior of others around you, and don’t let anger or pride get the best of you.

Be aware- stay alert!

Avoid- unnecessary places, people, and situations!

Escape and evade- retreat, use natural or man made barriers to keep between you and the bad guy! Run to safety not from danger, in other words run to where people are especially those in authority.

Physical confrontation- as a last resort only! Go on the offensive! Hit first, hit hard, hit often, and grapple only when you have to!

The number one thing in self-defense is to do what ever it takes by any means necessary to Survive!

This sounds like a long list but in reality these things can be mastered in a relatively short time compared to the traditional arts.

Many Traditional MAs have some of these things but the other things they do detract from its effectiveness.

The traditional arts are to strong in art and not strong enough in martial

[darrianation]

I take that back some of these things can keep you out of a fight in the first place.

Courtesy
Respect
Modesty
Loyalty
Generosity

But once the fight has started these don't do much. However staying out of fights is a very important part of self-defense.

[CrushingFist]

I am a fan of many different styles of Kung Fu, especially Shaolin and Wing Chun. I have never seen a Kung Fu artist in battle against another martial artist, in competition or in the srtreet. I have heard that it is qouted to be "Too Airy Fairy," to be used effectively in combat situations. If this is true, how did Bohidarma(If I am spelling his name correctly, if not forgive me.) and other Kung Fu artists gain so much respect in the martial arts world.

Look @ Bruce Lee's movie thats an example.
Many arts nowadays say we are true self-defense(you won't get nowhere with that)
The style needs to be proven like K-1, UFC, PRide and stuff
You need brutal arts nowadays, you think a tai chi master will survive in a street fight? I wonder how, but since he's a master he will adapt his traditional ways to survive in nowadays

[darrianation]

Here I go again-

If I were to pick just a short list of things that symbolizes why I don’t think Kung Fu is as good as other systems for self-defense.

This would be my list-

1) When watching kung Fu it is like watching a graceful dance. It is very poetic like performance art. But when watching Kung Fu fighters fight non- kung fu fighters like in the UFCs and etc. there is none of those graceful, intricate movements. Whether or not the Kung Fu fighter wins or looses he does not fight with the same grace and fluidity he was doing in his training hall or during his forms or pre-arranged sparring practice. He fights with the basics, basic punches, kicks, takedowns, and etc.

Some I have seen even while winning just went out there and threw all form out the window and just punched wildly. Hey it worked, so I won’t knock it but that’s not what you train to do in Kung FU.

My observations are this: If you do not fight with fancy complicated techniques and movement then why train with them? To me this is wasted movement and training time that can be spent more productively doing something else.

2) Too many techniques. How many of them do you do in an average fight and how consistently successful are they? Remember an average street fight lasts only a few seconds.
3) The time it takes to learn all those complicated, techniques, and intricate patterns. Too long.
4) Lack of fight psycology- dealing with fear, adrenaline, and etc.

*There are systems that can teach you good self-defense with weapons (Gun, knife, stick), and hands in feet in a matter of months. I can teach someone to be a combat shooter in just a few weeks.


When a situation happens in which you have to defend yourself, you need to now something now not 10 years from now. (Another cultural difference)

[CrushingFist]

True!!!
But I don't want to learn self-defense and fight like the person, I want to fight my own way and use advatange, finish the fight in under 3,5, or 10 seconds at most, finish it as soon as it starts, and not fight like if we're boxers, but fight in a freestyle way so i can be able to do anything and defeat him without lettin him touch me. i don't like to be hit and when i do he's gonna be in trouble.

[Nothingness]

Ring fighting is not a self-defense. It's, well, ring fighting. You think, strategize, how to do as much damage to your opponent while keeping your strenght and endurance.

In the street, you always consider what action will result you in a lesser damage. In all seriousness, I don't need to prove myself a la Bruce Lee. If someone robs me with a weapon and I have only $20 in my wallet, I'd give it to him without thinking. Yeah, I can possibly take him down. However, I can end up injured or die. If 5 thugs are going to rape my girlfriend, I will fight them despite all the risks.

I have a degree in psychology. There is not much to talk about in "combat psychology". It's a "fight or flight" situation. If you are willing to fight, don't be affraid to die. If you are affraid, run.

When I casually asked my Ngo Cho Kun master on technics to disarm an opponent without hurting the person, he looked at me with a funny look. The look says "what are you, stupid?" All technics in NCK are used to do as much damage as possible in the fastest time possible. An NCK practicioner using his real skills will not survive a ring fighting; he will get disqualified for sure.

One fallacy of martial artists is pride. Once one learns something, one feels inclined to use the arts. Otherwise, he will feel inferior. Once you get over this, you won't ask questions like "what will be more effective in real situation? which style is better?" You just know that you can use it if you want to, but you don't have to use it. This is the essence of self-defense in martial arts.

Ring fighting is a totally different issue.