The reality of Kungfu

[AlexJitsu]

The reason why some gung fu styles do not look flashy in actual fighting is due to the nature of the forms. A form is many techniques put together in one motion for practice, competition, and show. When you fight, you don't perform all of your techniques in an elegant manner and in a certain rythm.

[yentao]

Most western influence country familiar of boxing looking fighting strikes. Like they see in tv like muhammad ali and mike tyson. If they see some kung fu forms they ended up saying what was that? Then, that is not effective. They think what it was for? It is flowery. They must have thought in Kung Fu,Training forms like kata is same with fighting forms. Different forms in exhibition too. Everybody thinks that the right way is the western way

[jubaji]

I never seen you posted something worth to read it grandma.

That's great. Care to try that in English now?

[darrianation]

I always tried to avoid comparing. Any martial art will look different in training and real fight. Competing in a tournament is a another form of training it so different in the real fight, the feeling and intensity of situation affects your performance. In a ring you got a referee to control the fight and judges to score you. In a real fight no one will stop you doing those things you just said in the other posts (kick him the balls) I also like your sig you keep me from posting. You earned my attention.

The point I am trying to make is this; It has been said that in the TMAs only about 15% of their techniques are effective, the rest is usually stylized crap.

If you were to put all those TMAs into one pot and stir it up and extract just the effective techniques, not the ones that just the upper class of athletic superiority can perform, but the ones the average person with average physical attributes can perform effectively on a consistent bases, you will find that those techniques will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% of all the techniques in the pot and furthermore you will find that those techniques will be inherent in the majority of the different MAs that went into the pot.

Those techniques you find will be the gross motor skilled techniques, the jab or equivalent, palm strikes eye gouges, hammer fists, ridge hands, knees, elbows, and etc.

Note: These are also the ones you see come up over and over again when martial Artists from various systems fight in a street fight.

It isn’t any coincidence that when my friend who had 15 years of praying mantis and X style (cant remember his other style) of kung Fu training got into a fight he demolished his opponent with straight punches and palm strikes, or when my friend the pro boxer used straight punches and a hook or two, to devour two hoodlums, or when another good friend of mine with 19 years in karate used straight punches and a ridge hand to stop a would be stereo thief targeting his car, or those TMA guys in the early UFCs Whose fighting style was almost undistinguishable from one another’s, they went in throwing wild straight punches or looping punches using both open and closed fists. You might see a kick or two but generally they are front kicks and round kicks. Yes even I with over twenty years of martial arts training use the simple un-flashy techniques in real fighting.

Why? Because these are the techniques you use when you get excited and the adrenaline is pumping, these are the techniques you are limited to when stress, fear, and anxiety hit, these are the techniques that you can act (as opposed to react) with, you don’t have to have exact timing, precision targeting, or even have to think about. They flow out they can look pristine or ugly but work either way.

My point is, That you really don’t need anything else, yes you have to be able to fight in all ranges- weapons, kicking, punching, clinching, and ground ranges, you need weapons, striking, and grappling training, but the majority of techniques you see in the TMAs is stylized Bullshit that you really don’t need to be effective. It’s generally over kill, but overkill of less functional techniques.

[darrianation]

I just want to add if you concentrated on just a small core of functional techniques you wouldn’t need years of training to learn and perfect them. They are simple to learn and easy to retain, functional, and you don’t need a hell of lot of reinforcement.

Now, this would give you more time for application-oriented training. And most importantly, more time for weapons, remember weapons beats empty hands they can beat multiple opponents, they can also even beat others with weapons. They can save your live when all the punching, kicking, and arm bars cannot.

You get more bang for your buck, more out f it with less time put into it, less wasted time and energy (efficiency), while still keeping the integrity and functionality of your techniques.

[darrianation]

I never really switched from Judo/JJ to Hsing Yi. My JJ/Judo class is only once a week, and I was opting for some more involvement in MA. So now, I do Hsing Yi 3 times a week. I still take the JJ/Judo class, however.

The problem with Judo/JJ is the lack of striking (overall). Hsing Yi Ch'uan is primarily a punching art, however, deep inside it contains grappling (and good grappling too). I saw a video with some Hsing Yi grappling and it looked very similar to Ju Jitsu armbars, etc.

Overall, I think Hsing Yi is a very complete system. It contains hand striking, foot striking, grappling, Qigong, proper mindset, based on principles, and more. Also, Hsing Yi practitioners have defeated many other styles before, like in this video:

http://neurology.med.upenn.edu/%7Ejason/fights/Tournament-XingYi.vs.WingChun.mov

...also, ignore the title, it's incorrect. It is Hsing Yi vs. Sanda (San Shou). Later in the fight the San Shou man gets knocked out. The Hsing Yi fighter is one of the Black Taoists.

One problem with most martial artists is mindset. A lot of so called "karate kids" at my school, when they spar or fight, they always wait for an attack (their first move is almost always to block a punch), and are almost always on the defensive. Unfortunately, you can't win a fight this way without getting lucky.

In the video above, the TMA demonstrates a somewhat effective mindset of being on the offensive. He hit hard, and despite the fact that it may look a bit "dirty" to you external gung fu people, his footwork is actually correct and he is using the technique of "Crushing fist" or Beng Chuan. It is regarded as one of the hardest punches in CMA.

Sorry, haven't seen the clip yet, I am at work, have to wait for later.

Alex, right on, cool. It’s a bit different; most guys would go for the judo/boxing course, but sounds fun nonetheless and keeps you busy. I go to the gym (weights/cardio) twice a week, I go to the gun range once a week, teach a personal protection class twice a week, and go spar with the karate school once a week, plus my regular job, a wife and two kids damn sometimes I am too damn busy.

[AlexJitsu]

Yes, I really enjoy Hsing Yi. One advantage to Hsing Yi is that there is very little blocking. When you defend against a punch, a block is a strike and a strike is a block. You don't just go to block the attack, you attack him and then they're punch will be intercepted by your arm, and so on and so forth.

So in a sense, you could be completely on the offensive, but still be on the defensive.

[Crabpuff]

I just want to add if you concentrated on just a small core of functional techniques you wouldn’t need years of training to learn and perfect them. They are simple to learn and easy to retain, functional, and you don’t need a hell of lot of reinforcement.

Now, this would give you more time for application-oriented training. And most importantly, more time for weapons, remember weapons beats empty hands they can beat multiple opponents, they can also even beat others with weapons. They can save your live when all the punching, kicking, and arm bars cannot.

You get more bang for your buck, more out f it with less time put into it, less wasted time and energy (efficiency), while still keeping the integrity and functionality of your techniques.

Your right in a sense but most of the teachers, sensei, sifu or whatever that I have learned from usually start with the basics and then they teach in some of the stlyes flowery stuff as you call it. My current teacher start with the basics and every other day goes right back to them.

[yentao]

The point I am trying to make is this; It has been said that in the TMAs only about 15% of their techniques are effective, the rest is usually stylized crap.

If you were to put all those TMAs into one pot and stir it up and extract just the effective techniques, not the ones that just the upper class of athletic superiority can perform, but the ones the average person with average physical attributes can perform effectively on a consistent bases, you will find that those techniques will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% of all the techniques in the pot and furthermore you will find that those techniques will be inherent in the majority of the different MAs that went into the pot.

Those techniques you find will be the gross motor skilled techniques, the jab or equivalent, palm strikes eye gouges, hammer fists, ridge hands, knees, elbows, and etc.

Note: These are also the ones you see come up over and over again when martial Artists from various systems fight in a street fight.

It isn’t any coincidence that when my friend who had 15 years of praying mantis and X style (cant remember his other style) of kung Fu training got into a fight he demolished his opponent with straight punches and palm strikes, or when my friend the pro boxer used straight punches and a hook or two, to devour two hoodlums, or when another good friend of mine with 19 years in karate used straight punches and a ridge hand to stop a would be stereo thief targeting his car, or those TMA guys in the early UFCs Whose fighting style was almost undistinguishable from one another’s, they went in throwing wild straight punches or looping punches using both open and closed fists. You might see a kick or two but generally they are front kicks and round kicks. Yes even I with over twenty years of martial arts training use the simple un-flashy techniques in real fighting.

Why? Because these are the techniques you use when you get excited and the adrenaline is pumping, these are the techniques you are limited to when stress, fear, and anxiety hit, these are the techniques that you can act (as opposed to react) with, you don’t have to have exact timing, precision targeting, or even have to think about. They flow out they can look pristine or ugly but work either way.

My point is, That you really don’t need anything else, yes you have to be able to fight in all ranges- weapons, kicking, punching, clinching, and ground ranges, you need weapons, striking, and grappling training, but the majority of techniques you see in the TMAs is stylized Bullshit that you really don’t need to be effective. It’s generally over kill, but overkill of less functional techniques.

Be specific. Name a kung fu form or technique that is just flashy and not effective and flowery. It's needed i need you to prove something.

[yentao]

That's great. Care to try that in English now?

Ok hahaha. "I never seen you posted something worth to read grandma".

Is that better than great, grandma?

[Crabpuff]

No one every said that a whole style is flashy and useless(they might now) Just that it has stuff in their opinion that is. Most kung fu has moves that are a little to fancy in form to use effective without extensive practice. I have even watched a few kung Fu instructers Do a form very flowery and make it look nice. Note that they have been doing it for years, yet when they apply it it looks nothing even close to what the form looked like. It was used but it was leaning toward crude but effective then flashy and not effective. Stances are a perfect example some stances are not meant to be used in most fights, you average belligerent drunk guy is going to charge you and knock you right over if you try. I think kung fu was meant to fight other kung fu styles primarily, yes you can adapt it but then you change styles.

[jubaji]

Ok hahaha. "I never seen you posted something worth to read grandma".

Is that better than great, grandma?

Sorry, you are still nowhere near a comprehensible sentence.


What is your first language?

[darrianation]

Your right in a sense but most of the teachers, sensei, sifu or whatever that I have learned from usually start with the basics and then they teach in some of the stlyes flowery stuff as you call it. My current teacher start with the basics and every other day goes right back to them.

That, kind of my point, every system has good basics, that's what you need in a real fight, thats usually what most people end up using anyway when violently attack. The flowery stuff that you mention is fluff, filling, that makes the style a style.

[darrianation]

Be specific. Name a kung fu form or technique that is just flashy and not effective and flowery. It's needed i need you to prove something.

Use your head, Have you ever seen the wing chun forms, praying mantis forms, or a shaolin deminstration, pretty flashy artsy fartsy fluff. Same when they are doing their partner drills, fluff, and more fancy fluff.

If you have a point then make it.

[AlexJitsu]

Yeah, but if you do that stuff it'll make you so acrobatic and fast, some shaolin people I've seen are more acrobatic than people in gymnastics.

But dude, Wing chun is not flashy by far.