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The reality of Kungfu

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  • Originally posted by yentao
    That's what we call informal writing
    No, that's what we call semiliterate.



    You little dope.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by yentao
      I got what you said. But Kata is use a form of body strengthening exercise. I wouldn't know about karate but in Kung Fu it was a different. I think in karate and kung fu it is functional and give a role into it. Techniques are useless if no power and strength is applied with it, it needs kata for the training that gives those techniques to be functional. Then sparring with the use of armor and head gears. Tapping are for training in hitting vital parts. But armored body parts should be hit with power.
      In a time way back when Kata may have been a good method of exercise. In Karate the kata is used for: Developing power, breath control and precise movement. But this is a relatively new form of modality in karate. In karate the kata does not necessarily have application (that can be argued) but it’s application is learned in Bunkai and performed in kuminte. Or in other words, Kata leads to bunkai, bunkai leads to kuminte, and kuminte leads to the application of the kata.


      It’s a logical and reasonable progression, but do we really need them any more? Many well respected combat sports such as boxing and Muay Thai do not use them, and they are both very effective. There are other self-defense systems that do not use them and they are just as effective, if not more so than those systems that use them.

      To develop physical attributes of the student there are far more effective and efficient methods. There are calisthenics, pylometerics, weights, heavy bag, other bags/pad work, road work, sparring, live drills, shadow boxing (I have my students do shadow boxing either wearing 16 oz boxing gloves or 16oz weighted gloves, I use 3lb weighted gloves), and Thai pads with a live feeder can work almost every aspect of a fighter’s speed, power, accuracy, and endurance. The reality is we really don’t need kata. Kata/forms are really a stylized, traditional form of training and far less efficient than some of the other methods of training.

      Kata at least in Karate also uses unrealistic movements that can actually degrade response time and builds improper neuromuscle memory. For example, cocking the hands back to the ribs/hip, holding arms out at the end of the punch, and one, that I am flabbergasted by, turning 270’ to meet an oncoming attack (it would be much easier and faster to turn the 90’ to meet the attack).

      Note: Neuromuscle memory is very important because this is what you’ll rely on in most cases of sudden and violent attack, when the conscious brain disappears, and the subconscious (autonomic) brain takes over. I have spent to many years in karate, for example my wife startled me from behind a door (recently) and my autonomic reaction was to place one arm in my guard, and the other I cocked just above the waist just like in karate. I have been trying for years to deprogram that response, but it’s to deeply ingrained (I am embarrassed to admit that).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by AlexJitsu
        No, you just don't understand the system. Black Taoist's punches are far harder than boxing punches. Just look at his footwork, especially on the last punch. The feet move right when the punch strikes, so thus he's using his whole body weight to smash the opponent. Also, in Hsing Yi a strike is also a block, so he is effectively defending himself.
        What is your basis for saying that "Black Taoist's punches are far harder than boxing punches"?

        There was a study done of karate and boxing punches. Karate had similar power to boxing with a one-punch max, but in the timed speed punching were much slower, then they indexed the speed to power ratio and boxing pulled even further ahead.

        I am sorry I don't remember all the details but suffice it to say I cannot recall any studies of Kung Fu versus boxing as above. So again I ask on what do you premise your hypothesis?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nothingness
          I don't think the clip is a good representative. Let me focus on the person in the blue guard. First, he looks tense. This is fatal. Second, he was only focused in one technique. It looks like that he had a "I am gonna finish this mofo using this punch.". This is also fatal, the reflex will not work to the max. Third, his execution was sloppy. He was punching too farfetched and the balance was broken. In the last punch, his right foot was floating. Other than losing balance, he also lost some power from executing the punch that way.

          I met a Xingyi master on the other day. He showed me a proper beng quan. Please pardon me, but the punch in this cliip looks more like a sloppy straight than a beng quan.
          Let us remember one thing though (and I agree his form was less than desirable), if it works, it really doesn’t matter what it looks like.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by sherwinc
            Heres an Experiment:

            to test if whose of them a powerful puncher......

            1. try to punch the concrete wall 10 times using your Western Boxing Fist very very hard and see the result.....

            2. try to punch the concrete wall 10 times using KungFu's Iron Palm or KungFu's Poison Hand Palm very very hard and see the result......

            Question:
            now whose to be powerful?????

            and what will happened to a Western Boxers Fist after 10 times hitting the concrete wall?????
            There is an easier way, like using impact sensors. They can measure the PSI (pounds per square inch) of a punch, kick, or what ever. They can also measure the speed in seconds of repetitive strikes.

            And these machines don't lie nor do they have any bias.

            Comment


            • Hsing Yi is not "kung fu". Internal martial arts are nothing like external martial arts. In internal martial arts, you hurl your entire body at the opponent as opposed to using muscular strength. So if you weigh 160 lb, you'll be using 160 lb of force in internal MA (provided you do the movements correctly).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by AlexJitsu
                Hsing Yi is not "kung fu". Internal martial arts are nothing like external martial arts. In internal martial arts, you hurl your entire body at the opponent as opposed to using muscular strength. So if you weigh 160 lb, you'll be using 160 lb of force in internal MA (provided you do the movements correctly).
                Have you ever heard of the Karate lunge punch? Boxers are taught to use their bodies too (put their weight behind it). But not to lunge because if you are caught with a straight right, a knee kick, a forearm shiver, and etc, while lunging in you'll be the one getting knocked out.

                There are lots of ways to increase your power, but you have to remember risks versus benefits. If my technique puts me at more risk doing it, than what the possible benefits could be, i will not do it. There are ways to close distance more safely than others, lunging can be effective, but dangerous too.

                Comment


                • Hsing Yi is still much more complicated than a Karate "lunge punch". You don't use any muscular strength whatsoever, except pushing off the back leg. Yes, I know what you're talking about. The "lunge punch" is much less sophisticated, powerful, or effective as a hsing yi strike.

                  Comment


                  • And how do you quantify that?

                    There are many ways of increasing power- The spinning back fist, the MT spin back elbow, the jump and flying knee, other spinning kicks, jump kicks, and flying kicks. There are also jump and flying punches too. Also jump-spinning techniques all increase the power of the techniques.

                    But all have their inherent risks. Do you really want to turn you back on your opponent, even for a split second? Do you really want to be airborne in a street fight? Trips, slips, takedowns, and falls are often the result of these techniques.

                    But I do know what you mean by the lunging punches, these are more powerful, but these are nothing new, many styles and systems use some form of this.

                    I am not sure by looking at the clip what makes the "Hsing Yi" technique more sophisticated and powerful than others, but if all you care about is power than why not go for a jumping spinning backfist?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AlexJitsu
                      Hsing Yi is not "kung fu". Internal martial arts are nothing like external martial arts. In internal martial arts, you hurl your entire body at the opponent as opposed to using muscular strength. So if you weigh 160 lb, you'll be using 160 lb of force in internal MA (provided you do the movements correctly).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jubaji
                        Someone needs to cut your post count in half. 75% of your posts are less than a sentence long, and meaningless.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by darrianation
                          And how do you quantify that?

                          There are many ways of increasing power- The spinning back fist, the MT spin back elbow, the jump and flying knee, other spinning kicks, jump kicks, and flying kicks. There are also jump and flying punches too. Also jump-spinning techniques all increase the power of the techniques.
                          Telegraphic to the eye type of attacks....


                          Originally posted by darrianation
                          I am not sure by looking at the clip what makes the "Hsing Yi" technique more sophisticated and powerful than others, but if all you care about is power than why not go for a jumping spinning backfist?
                          because Jumping Spinning Backfist is a good candidate for a Telegraphic to the eye of the opponent...... now, what is the use of power if will only lead to emptiness cause its a telegraphic type of hand attack????? And why is it that even thou its a telegraphic type of attack it can surely hit your opponent???? why???? cause you are using your face to block the Spinning Back Fist......


                          Note:
                          Bruce Lee Learn Muay Thai but when he use the alphabets of Muay Thai Bruce Lee doesnt execute it in a telegraphic way...... even thou he is gifted/inborne with his speed and power...... you too can achieve that.....

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by darrianation
                            Let us remember one thing though (and I agree his form was less than desirable), if it works, it really doesn’t matter what it looks like.
                            It is not about form at all. Forms follow functions. First, the power will be discounted (regardless of the body mass) if the execution is sloppy because it is not maximized. Second, there is always a trade off with balance. The way that person executed the punch is very susceptible to losing balance. Hence, it makes him vulnerable to a counter attack. If one has a good balance, he is vulnerable only to strike attacks if he doesn't have a good guard. Losing balance, one is also vulnerable to throws and locks.

                            Just my 2 cents worth.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by sherwinc
                              Telegraphic to the eye type of attacks....




                              because Jumping Spinning Backfist is a good candidate for a Telegraphic to the eye of the opponent...... now, what is the use of power if will only lead to emptiness cause its a telegraphic type of hand attack????? And why is it that even thou its a telegraphic type of attack it can surely hit your opponent???? why???? cause you are using your face to block the Spinning Back Fist......


                              Note:
                              Bruce Lee Learn Muay Thai but when he use the alphabets of Muay Thai Bruce Lee doesnt execute it in a telegraphic way...... even thou he is gifted/inborne with his speed and power...... you too can achieve that.....
                              True, but lunge punches regarless of design are more or less telegraphed. And I am not condoning the jump, flying, and spinning stuff, I am making fun of them.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nothingness
                                It is not about form at all. Forms follow functions. First, the power will be discounted (regardless of the body mass) if the execution is sloppy because it is not maximized. Second, there is always a trade off with balance. The way that person executed the punch is very susceptible to losing balance. Hence, it makes him vulnerable to a counter attack. If one has a good balance, he is vulnerable only to strike attacks if he doesn't have a good guard. Losing balance, one is also vulnerable to throws and locks.

                                Just my 2 cents worth.
                                Nothingness, hey bro' I agree with you.

                                It's just that people get so caught up in the small details they forget what the techniques is for. I mean teaching a new student to throw a jab, slow and in the air at first so the teacher can pick out the mistakes and correct it is one thing, but 10 years later the student shouldn't be throwing that same jab slow and in the air. I see this in so many classical martial arts. After 10 years of karate training I was still doing the same routines the same way I was doing them in the first 6 months. To me after you learned the technique, its time to move on. The application becomes more important, because it's effect is more important than it's aesthetics.

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