Has anyone fought decent chinese MA practitioners?

[Studiobuddy]

The brain can only process so much information at a time as well, it can only send so much information via peripheral neuro-networks, too much information and you can have a traffic jam. Also, when you are hit with fear and adrenalin certain motor functions shutdown, complex or intricate techniques become all but impossible to perform.

I ask my students to think about their most fearful moment, and then I ask them in that situation what kind of tasks they could perform.

Here is a story I like to tell my students.

When I was twelve years old I went flying with my uncle who owned his own airplane. This guy was a known prankster but who knew to what depths he’d sink too for a laugh. Well, I found out one day.

We had been flying for about a half hour when he suddenly and abruptly said “Oh my God, we are almost out of fuel” as he pointed to the fuel gage which read empty. He turned back towards the airfield to make a quick landing. About five minutes later the engine began to sputter. I was now terrified. As the engine began to stall I was gripping the seat as hard as I could. I remembered how hard it was to breath, and seconds seemed top take hours. I remember not being able to focus my eyes very well, nor did I understand what my uncle was saying, I could hear him but I could not concentrate on what he was saying. After the engine stalled he nosed dived the plane I switched my grip from the seat to the dash and pushed myself back into my seat. I thought we were going to die. I was so scared I couldn’t even scream, not one word, just dead silence.

He then switched the empty fuel tank to a full tank and restarted the engine and he laughed his ass off.

Okay now as we look at this example I wonder what kind of tasks I could perform under these conditions of fear and adrenalin? Hmmm…Could I do algebra? No! Could I perform Pinan shodan? No? Could I perform trapping techniques? NO! Could I grab on to someone? Yes! Could I push? Yes! Could I punch? Yes!


This shows that higher process of intellect as well as finer motor activity is severely affected by stress, fear, and adrenalin. This is why we need to learn and commit to neuro-muscle memory techniques that are simple and that can be used without the higher process of the mind that do not rely on intricate movements. Because when you arrive home after a night of drinking or carousing with the Sheilas and find a 6’4’’ power lifter looking guy in your home, in the dark, who startles you from behind a corner, You can act subconsciously (without intricate mental processing) with the appropriate responses that are effective. To many techniques can cause a traffic jam affect, complex techniques can cause a freeze or a poorly executed response that can get you either killed or severely injured.


A hall mark of any good technique is simplicity. It needs to be functional under extreme pressure and it needs to be universal. Universal? Universality is essential, meaning one technique with many applications and with a simple variance it can be adaptable to many more situations.

I have one technique that can be used against any frontal attack that you can imagine anything from a lapel grab, front choke, right cross, any type of grab, flurry punches, and etc and is very effective. I do not have to memorize a technique for each different specific attack. I can defend most with one technique. I have one or two other techniques for other various and as sundry attacks that work well for attacks from behind and the side as well but they are also kept to the lowest constitute minimum. I like techniques that can be used regardless of what the attacker is doing or regardless of what attack he is using.

The best street fighters (some with absolutely no formal MA training) can beat most guys with 1-3 techniques in their arsenal, even against formally trained MAs. Some may have more but still very few such as: Jab, cross, head but, or jab, cross, hook, clinch (grab), head but, knee. Simple stuff but effective. All good street fighters have one thing in common they are mentally tough and they fight nasty, and unfair! To be good at a few techniques can be just as effective as being good with hundreds of techniques and when stress fear, and adrenalin hit even more effective and practical.

To impress your friends more is better than a few, but the reality is for real world self-defense few beats more!

well said BRAVO

[sherwinc]

The brain can only process so much information at a time as well, it can only send so much information via peripheral neuro-networks, too much information and you can have a traffic jam. Also, when you are hit with fear and adrenalin certain motor functions shutdown, complex or intricate techniques become all but impossible to perform.

I ask my students to think about their most fearful moment, and then I ask them in that situation what kind of tasks they could perform.

Here is a story I like to tell my students.

When I was twelve years old I went flying with my uncle who owned his own airplane. This guy was a known prankster but who knew to what depths he’d sink too for a laugh. Well, I found out one day.

We had been flying for about a half hour when he suddenly and abruptly said “Oh my God, we are almost out of fuel” as he pointed to the fuel gage which read empty. He turned back towards the airfield to make a quick landing. About five minutes later the engine began to sputter. I was now terrified. As the engine began to stall I was gripping the seat as hard as I could. I remembered how hard it was to breath, and seconds seemed top take hours. I remember not being able to focus my eyes very well, nor did I understand what my uncle was saying, I could hear him but I could not concentrate on what he was saying. After the engine stalled he nosed dived the plane I switched my grip from the seat to the dash and pushed myself back into my seat. I thought we were going to die. I was so scared I couldn’t even scream, not one word, just dead silence.

He then switched the empty fuel tank to a full tank and restarted the engine and he laughed his ass off.

Okay now as we look at this example I wonder what kind of tasks I could perform under these conditions of fear and adrenalin? Hmmm…Could I do algebra? No! Could I perform Pinan shodan? No? Could I perform trapping techniques? NO! Could I grab on to someone? Yes! Could I push? Yes! Could I punch? Yes!


This shows that higher process of intellect as well as finer motor activity is severely affected by stress, fear, and adrenalin. This is why we need to learn and commit to neuro-muscle memory techniques that are simple and that can be used without the higher process of the mind that do not rely on intricate movements. Because when you arrive home after a night of drinking or carousing with the Sheilas and find a 6’4’’ power lifter looking guy in your home, in the dark, who startles you from behind a corner, You can act subconsciously (without intricate mental processing) with the appropriate responses that are effective. To many techniques can cause a traffic jam affect, complex techniques can cause a freeze or a poorly executed response that can get you either killed or severely injured.


A hall mark of any good technique is simplicity. It needs to be functional under extreme pressure and it needs to be universal. Universal? Universality is essential, meaning one technique with many applications and with a simple variance it can be adaptable to many more situations.

I have one technique that can be used against any frontal attack that you can imagine anything from a lapel grab, front choke, right cross, any type of grab, flurry punches, and etc and is very effective. I do not have to memorize a technique for each different specific attack. I can defend most with one technique. I have one or two other techniques for other various and as sundry attacks that work well for attacks from behind and the side as well but they are also kept to the lowest constitute minimum. I like techniques that can be used regardless of what the attacker is doing or regardless of what attack he is using.

The best street fighters (some with absolutely no formal MA training) can beat most guys with 1-3 techniques in their arsenal, even against formally trained MAs. Some may have more but still very few such as: Jab, cross, head but, or jab, cross, hook, clinch (grab), head but, knee. Simple stuff but effective. All good street fighters have one thing in common they are mentally tough and they fight nasty, and unfair! To be good at a few techniques can be just as effective as being good with hundreds of techniques and when stress fear, and adrenalin hit even more effective and practical.

To impress your friends more is better than a few, but the reality is for real world self-defense few beats more!

now i am just thinking that if you only know just 1 type of kick, the SideKick to the Opponents groin......

i think all types of complicated standing kicks thrown at me is intercepted by a leading side kick to his groin.......

maybe you have a point.... why???? cause we cant sing very well if we are not in the mood or mad....

adrenalin rush

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I have one technique that can be used against any frontal attack that you can imagine anything from a lapel grab, front choke, right cross, any type of grab, flurry punches, and etc and is very effective. I do not have to memorize a technique for each different specific attack. I can defend most with one technique. I have one or two other techniques for other various and as sundry attacks that work well for attacks from behind and the side as well but they are also kept to the lowest constitute minimum. I like techniques that can be used regardless of what the attacker is doing or regardless of what attack he is using.

I'm curious, what move are you talking about?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

now i am just thinking that if you only know just 1 type of kick, the SideKick to the Opponents groin......

i think all types of complicated standing kicks thrown at me is intercepted by a leading side kick to his groin.......

maybe you have a point.... why???? cause we cant sing very well if we are not in the mood or mad....

adrenalin rush

Now you are scaring me

[CKD]

I just thought I would pitch in. A few techniques are better than a bunch. Make sure you pick ones that can be used in many situations. A flying kick has very little use. But a good hook, a inner reaping throw, and a sweep from the guard you will use plenty. I believe the CMA's and tma's can be effective. But they are pretty much dead. Even in the arts homeland you will find them trained less effectively (probaly because most of the time the home country had an event degenerated it from the first place) But I actually found out how good cma's and other tma's are trained in countries of the former soviet union. Kind of stumbled on that on accident bit its interesting. The reasons why they train more effectively and its they that are preserving the art I do not know. Its proably because Russia was exposed to these arts very early before degeneration. The arts were also used mostly for military so useless things might have been taken out and also simply because the Russians seek the practical applications of the art. Competetions for traditional arts were basically like mma tournaments, schools focus a lot on practical applications and sparring. I have also read interviews with people saying that the Former Soviet countries focus too much on the martial and less on the art. In other parts of the world Shuai Chiao seems to be trained the most effeciently. Most of todays Sanshou and full contact fighters come from Shuai Chiao. Last World Sanshou championships 3 out of 5 fighters for the U.S team were Shuai Chiao. The other two were from Chung Le's school.

[darrianation]

I'm curious, what move are you talking about?

I did not invent this technique (not even close); this technique has been around for awhile. I first learned this while studying combatives in the military back in the late 80’s (CIRCA 1988). It was simply called the blast. However it is a favored technique among many in the combatives community taught by many RBSD instructors and is seen in many women’s self-defense classes. It is not exclusive to any one martial art and it goes by many different names. I was told it originated in ancient Greece however it is a common technique that many of you probably already know in some form or another because it is used in many TMAs such as in some Indonesian arts as well in some CMAs. It is more of a concept than a technique. It can be modified in many different ways to tailor it to individual tastes and strengths.

I call it the “shock blast” because to me it best describes what you are doing to the BG when you unleash it (he’ll be in shock). I use it as a breeching tool to get inside to do other very nasty things that usually entails ripping someone’s eyes out or breaking their neck or a go behind for a takedown or a rear naked choke. However in and of it self it is capable of knocking out the BG, breaking his neck, or even killing him.

This technique is offensive yet at the same time it is also defensive. It allows you to close distance rapidly while protecting the vitals (eyes/face/chin, throat, neck, abdomen, and groin). It distracts the BG and upsets his balance and rhythm. It turns his own psychology against him, from “I am going to kick your ass” to “Oh my God I am getting my ass kicked”. This technique can be used regardless if he is throwing multiple punches, reaching for a front choke, etc, or as a pre-emptive strike; I prefer it as a pre-emptive.

Okay enough right? Get on with the description!

It is a simple technique really, a double palm strike to the chin pushing it upwards and back with full force. The fingers are slightly curled at the end to hopefully slip into the eyes (and to protect them from damage). It can be done with a 0 step, half step, full step, or lunge. It can be started from the neutral stance, ready stance or fence. The person using the blast tucks his chin down protecting his chin and his throat. His arms form a triangle out in front with the hands, forearms, biceps, and shoulders protecting the head, face, and neck. The user is slightly bent forward at the hips with his spine curved in a C to protect the abdomen and groin. It also gives you a low center of gravity for balance and assists with springing forward and driving up.

This is meant to be an aggressive close on the BG using all your weight and force bearing down on him. The thing I like most about it is its versatility. Even if you miss his chin it will still protect you and will still most likely unbalance him or disrupt his momentum and rhythm. There are also so many variations that are all equally potent and pertinent. It is a universal technique that is functional in many different situations and environments. It doesn’t rely on precise timing or laser like targeting and is for the most part gross motor skilled and can be performed in high stress, fear, and adrenaline states.

In my version of the blast I do not retract the arms/hands after the initial blow; instead I can hook the back of his neck with one hand and his chin with the other and walla a neck crank. Or I will keep in close contact while I rake his eyes and gouge him with my thumbs and maybe a head but or a bite (a form of shredding). You can use elbows, knees, head buts, and many, many other nasty things to upset his day. Remember though you have to keep the forward drive going and not break contact. If contact is broken you can re-engage with the blast or go to something else.

I do not believe in dueling (exchanging punches and kicks), so how do you fight without dueling? The blast or whatever you call it or want to call it and its wide range of follow-ups is a way to aggressively close on the enemy, turn the momentum of the fight in your favor (taking control) even against larger stronger opponents, while distracting, unbalancing him while at the same time disrupting and defeating his psyche in a very real and effective way.

[darrianation]

Hey, I just remebered another good reason for why many techniques are not as desirable as fewer techniques. Its called the Hick's law of performance (or performance phenomena)

The Hick's law states that "Decision time is proportional to the log of the number of alternatives".

So, simply put the fewer options you have the faster you process the information and execute the task.

[bartjam]

I did not invent this technique (not even close); this technique has been around for awhile. [snip...]
It is a simple technique really, a double palm strike to the chin pushing it upwards and back with full force. The fingers are slightly curled at the end to hopefully slip into the eyes (and to protect them from damage). It can be done with a 0 step, half step, full step, or lunge. It can be started from the neutral stance, ready stance or fence. The person using the blast tucks his chin down protecting his chin and his throat. His arms form a triangle out in front with the hands, forearms, biceps, and shoulders protecting the head, face, and neck. The user is slightly bent forward at the hips with his spine curved in a C to protect the abdomen and groin. It also gives you a low center of gravity for balance and assists with springing forward and driving up.

This is meant to be an aggressive close on the BG using all your weight and force bearing down on him.

This is an excellent technique, one I was taught in the first days of training with the only good, street-experienced WingTsun teacher I had (then I had 3-4 others, all theorizing around...). Certainly a very good transition to the Shredder or other fight-stoppers

[Bjjexpertise@be]

So darrianation, once you strike his chin with yoru palm you're supposed to keep driving it to keep him off balance?

[darrianation]

So darrianation, once you strike his chin with yoru palm you're supposed to keep driving it to keep him off balance?

There are many ways of doing it. For instance you could retract and continue to palm strike in flurries/combos or continue to hold on with one hand while repeatedly palm striking with the other. What I do once contact is made is I’ll slide one hand back to hook the back of his neck for control, with my other I can do many different things depending what he gives me. I like to neck crank, so with one hand pulling his head into me with the other I grab his chin and do the ol’ push/pull, pull the back of his neck while pushing his chin up and to the side at a 45’angle (if I have the chin with right hand then I push his chin to my right. This will do one of two things. He will turn with it (his body), or you’ll break his neck. Usually the body turns with it. From here you can twist him to the ground or you can gain a chest to back position and then you can apply a rear naked choke.

There are many other possibilities such as instead of the neck crank you can control the neck with one hand while attacking this eyes and throat with the other. Eyes: Rakes gouge/pokes. Throat: Web hand strikes or grabbing the trachea (squeeze/rip). Or you can simple begin to hit him with punches.

Now he won’t sit still for this, he will be doing every thing he can to shake you (I’m sure you can imagine). Most of the time he will turn his head away from the attacks giving you opportunity to strike with hammer fists to the side of his head/temples. Or with a quick push on the shoulder with a simultaneous pull on his neck or other arm/shoulder you can again turn him into a chest to back position.

Usually you won’t have long to do these attacks because with the forward drive and other attacks to his eyes, throat, or other face areas he will be doing everything he can to shake you, turning/ twisting/backing peddling/running/pushing and etc. Often he is very likely to loose his footing and fall. This gives you an opportunity to either escape or begin a kick/stomping attack while he’s still down or time to access a weapon. Try to keep a somewhat a low center of gravity so you don’t get tripped up too unless you intend to go down with him. I like the Osto Gari from this position but I always want to maintain my feet. But if you do go down with him (accidentlly or intentionally) you can still continue your eye, throat, biting, head butting , and etc attacks on the ground.

The bottom line is for this to work you have to aggressively close, keep close and drive him back. Whether or not you use boxing combos, head but, or take him down is up to you and your personal preferences but always maintain the forward drive and always follow up with some kind of techniques/combos.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I doubt going for a takedown would be a good idea if you are driving him back with your palm. It would be creating distance from you and him.

Would it be possible to transition form that move toa rear naked choke?

[jubaji]

oooooooh boy

It is a simple technique really, a double palm strike to the chin pushing it upwards and back with full force.

And while you're doing this his arms are just hanging loosely at his side? I guess it would be physically impossible for him to post up your elbows?

He couldn't possibly throw a hook?

You've prevented him from stepping back/off and leaving you there with both arms extended in front of you?

If he's considerably taller than you this wouldn't leave you stretching your arms up towards him?

Yeah, sounds unstoppable!

[shirase]

Does this technique trigger the same defensive reflexes that Ive heard the shredder can make even experienced people do?(i heard that shredder makes people curl up and hide kind of)

[darrianation]

And while you're doing this his arms are just hanging loosely at his side? I guess it would be physically impossible for him to post up your elbows?

He couldn't possibly throw a hook?

You've prevented him from stepping back/off and leaving you there with both arms extended in front of you?

If he's considerably taller than you this wouldn't leave you stretching your arms up towards him?

Yeah, sounds unstoppable!

For him to elbow you effectively he needs torque, to have torque you need distance. If you keep him close he cannot effectively elbow. The same goes for you, you cannot elbow him either because the distance I am talking about negates torque. The same goes for jabs, and crosses he cannot do this. Hooks can be blocked by raising you arms, or negated by getting your head up under his chin. You can even windmill his hooking arm and essentially trap it. Anyhow if he is being driven backwards he has no damaging power. The trouble comes when he or you break or make distance enough to bring torque into play then your right he can elbow.

[darrianation]

I doubt going for a takedown would be a good idea if you are driving him back with your palm. It would be creating distance from you and him.

Would it be possible to transition form that move toa rear naked choke?

I think ground fighting in the street is best saved for when there is no other choice. However not all is lost if you both go down...as long as you know how to grapple and his friends aren't around to stomp your head in. Definitely environment and the situation plays a large roll in whether to go to the ground or not, but there are also times when it might be desirable, or not a choice.

There are many things you can do! I have stated different option so you can get the idea of the versatility of this technique. If you are using both your hands to strike like with flurries of palm strikes your right contact is not maintained and he could get away or counter. In this case it would make better sense to do forward moving rapid eye strikes. When someone’s are eyes are being attacked it is natural for them to become defensive and try to cover their eyes and turn away from the attack. Now you can use their turning momentum to turn them to their back (chest back position), break and run, or continue with hammers to the side of their head.

If you ask me what I think is best, I would say hook their neck and neck crank or continue with rapid, repeated, and vicious eye assaults.

Another option is to do the Muay Thai clinch, gain control move them around and drive them back and use knee strikes. When you knee, step forward with your weight driving forward and down. This drives them back and if they happen to catch your knee/leg they cannot hold your leg or take you down.