Kungfu is fake

[sherwinc]

Okay, so we have the animal styles -- monkey, crane, tiger, dragon, etc..
Let's go to the top of the food chain -- HUMAN. With that, I believe that the human style, the way a human ought to fight another human, is Muay Thai. This is my own opinion, but I'm sure nobody can disregard its aggressiveness and effectiveness both in the ring and on the street, backed by rigorous training and conditioning. Do any of you have crane's beaks or tiger claws? No, but you all have fists, feet, knees, and elbows, RIGHT? Go learn the human style.

as what i know, there are 3 kinds of KungFu in order:

1. Animal Styles/Systems
2. Human Styles/Systems
3. Scientific Systems

i choose Scientific KungFu systems......

[Oraenor]

Okay, so we have the animal styles -- monkey, crane, tiger, dragon, etc..
Let's go to the top of the food chain -- HUMAN. With that, I believe that the human style, the way a human ought to fight another human, is Muay Thai. This is my own opinion, but I'm sure nobody can disregard its aggressiveness and effectiveness both in the ring and on the street, backed by rigorous training and conditioning. Do any of you have crane's beaks or tiger claws? No, but you all have fists, feet, knees, and elbows, RIGHT? Go learn the human style.

Firstly, let me just say you are an inperspective MORON. The human style is weapons since we are the animals that use tools to do out bidding.
Secondly to emphasise my first point, we are on TOP of the food chain because we use TOOLS and that our skills and strengths are useless against most animals.I will prove my point by DARING you to wrestle with a hungry tiger.
Third the animals are guidance of the state of mind, fighting fierce with a crane style will be useless but will be useful with tiger. It is the user that will determine the outcome.
Forth, the animals represent the name of a move, like finger thrust is like a snakes head and grappling hand is like a tigers claw.
Fifth, humans are pretty useless ANIMALS(believe it or not!) without tools and brain, use it!
Sixth, never call muay thai a human system ever again, otherwise I will send a real human style after you, an army tank!

[HtTKar]

Can I wrestle a crane instead of a tiger? How about a dragon, their pretty good at fighting.....

Tigers and panthers are both dangerous animals...aren't they almost extinct?

Snakes?

These animal styles truly are out of date. What were people studying before their art was broken down into animal styles?

Shaolin Ch'uan Fa did not become great by thinking they were the greatest. They constantly allowed other martial artists to come into their temples to teach and evolve their art since ~650AD. They started out with 18 Fists of Lo Han. Chueh Yuan later made this into the 72 movements. upon learning pressure points he made this 170 movements.

Later on (Ming Dynasty) the 170 movements became the 5 animal styles. It took over 500 years to define the 5 animal styles.

This was constantly evolving. This made it work. Evolution was what kept them alive. Since then the art has been stagnant.

If the five animal styles weren't even created until the Ming Dynasty, then how can they even be considered "Real Kung Fu"? Wouldn't Shaolin Ch'uan Fa be the only "Real Kung Fu"?

If they haven't evolved since the inception of the animal styles, then how can they be relavant to modern times?

They aren't relavant to modern times. Martial arts needs to constantly be tested and needs to evolve, not stagnate. Fixating on the way people used to fight "back in the day" will only get you killed now. Cross-training is a necessity. Learning from other martial arts is a necessity.

You would be wise to incorporate traditional Martial arts into your regime.

Please dont think I'm being negative...The teaching of a dragon is a lifetime of wisdom.

[Oraenor]

Can I wrestle a crane instead of a tiger? How about a dragon, their pretty good at fighting.....

Tigers and panthers are both dangerous animals...aren't they almost extinct?

Snakes?

These animal styles truly are out of date. What were people studying before their art was broken down into animal styles?

Shaolin Ch'uan Fa did not become great by thinking they were the greatest. They constantly allowed other martial artists to come into their temples to teach and evolve their art since ~650AD. They started out with 18 Fists of Lo Han. Chueh Yuan later made this into the 72 movements. upon learning pressure points he made this 170 movements.

Later on (Ming Dynasty) the 170 movements became the 5 animal styles. It took over 500 years to define the 5 animal styles.

This was constantly evolving. This made it work. Evolution was what kept them alive. Since then the art has been stagnant.

If the five animal styles weren't even created until the Ming Dynasty, then how can they even be considered "Real Kung Fu"? Wouldn't Shaolin Ch'uan Fa be the only "Real Kung Fu"?

If they haven't evolved since the inception of the animal styles, then how can they be relavant to modern times?

They aren't relavant to modern times. Martial arts needs to constantly be tested and needs to evolve, not stagnate. Fixating on the way people used to fight "back in the day" will only get you killed now. Cross-training is a necessity. Learning from other martial arts is a necessity.

You would be wise to incorporate traditional Martial arts into your regime.

Please dont think I'm being negative...The teaching of a dragon is a lifetime of wisdom.

**This was constantly evolving. This made it work. Evolution was what kept them alive. Since then the art has been stagnant.
this is true but must be applied throughout all fields.All those stubborn BOXERS out there must understand that MA and boxing are on the same boat, one cannot deny another's existance.

**If they haven't evolved since the inception of the animal styles, then how can they be relavant to modern times?
The lack of evolution was due to afew factors- new weapons ie guns, honouring the master by keeping the art intact without using it, business mind focus where people were more interested in the economy than fighting/ looking after themselves, laws, maoist revolution where many practitioners were slaughtered and purpose, the boxer rebellion is a thing of the past and there is no purpose to train to kill the Chings.

**They aren't relavant to modern times.
Disagree, people back then had a harder life than today.People back then had to train harder so the system can ADAPT TO THEM and not vice versa.People today have a bad mentality in which they think that if they train in somthing, they have to adapt to it, especially true to ninjitsuists, therefore dont work and thus blame the system. Remember fighting systems are only tools, you dont need to use it if you dont see a need. We practice it for health, to honour the creators and to use the philosophy of it and thats it, whether its useful to you or not is your choice.

**Cross-training is a necessity. Learning from other martial arts is a necessity.

Very true, think creatively and your system will usually have a counter for it!

**You would be wise to incorporate traditional Martial arts into your regime.
A very important factor of why Sanda has beaten alot of muay thai

**Please dont think I'm being negative...The teaching of a dragon is a lifetime of wisdom.
The dragon in the animal system is not an animal, just a fusion concept that if you combine the properties of the 4 very different styles, the masterbeast aka dragon is the result.The animals still exist today, just think more metaphorically- tiger:grappling arts, snake: defensive internal arts, crane: kicking arts and leopardunching arts, combine them and you will get the Dragon

[rsoliman4]

** combine them and you will get the Dragon

GO GO POWER RANGERS! WTF r u talkin' about? prolly take 30 years to learn all that useless shit. combine them and you will get the Dragon? stop watching power rangers. u're not a fighter, just a focker.

[Oraenor]

GO GO POWER RANGERS! WTF r u talkin' about? prolly take 30 years to learn all that useless shit. combine them and you will get the Dragon? stop watching power rangers. u're not a fighter, just a focker.

You insult somthing you dont even understand, your as bad as your beaten up sifu. The dragon is the metaphorical imagery of combining the different various combat aspects together. If you can gather the 4 main aspects- striking hands, striking leg, evading and grappling, then you have a good understanding of combat. WC isnt crap, you and your your sifu are shit because you 2 have bad mentalities.

[jubaji]

you and your your sifu are shit because yous 2 have bad mentalities.

"yous 2"?!

[Oraenor]

"yous 2"?!

aussie slang. yous 2 refers to the guy and his sifu.

[jubaji]

aussie slang. yous 2 refers to the guy and his sifu.

Don't blame your nation for your poor English.

[HtTKar]

Oreanor,
You dont have to quote me twice. That takes up an aweful lot of room. But I feel that you are mostly agreeing with me, except for one point.

If a martial art has not evolved since ancient times, then it is no longer relavent to modern times. Saying that people had it harder then is all relative to the time. Nobody had guns then, and good steel weapons were hard to find, if not impossible to get. Any martial art that does not evolve is no longer an art. It is study, nothing more than studying a dead language.

Sure there are things to learn from that study, but the art of war and battle has to look at the past, present, and future to be effective. It is forced to evolve as new obstacles become present.

true fighting systems are just tools. The screwdriver, the wrench, and many other tools were created within only the last 100 years. Surely any craftsman would put these tools to work so that he could be most proficient.

[Oraenor]

Oreanor,
You dont have to quote me twice. That takes up an aweful lot of room. But I feel that you are mostly agreeing with me, except for one point.

If a martial art has not evolved since ancient times, then it is no longer relavent to modern times. Saying that people had it harder then is all relative to the time. Nobody had guns then, and good steel weapons were hard to find, if not impossible to get. Any martial art that does not evolve is no longer an art. It is study, nothing more than studying a dead language.

Sure there are things to learn from that study, but the art of war and battle has to look at the past, present, and future to be effective. It is forced to evolve as new obstacles become present.

true fighting systems are just tools. The screwdriver, the wrench, and many other tools were created within only the last 100 years. Surely any craftsman would put these tools to work so that he could be most proficient.

actually I agree with you on evolution but one needs to keep some old virtues to learn from and to build from.One needs to learn an old art and modernise it through it, like learning about the histories of your nation.Old art does include all boxing etc if you were wondering.

**"true fighting systems are just tools. The screwdriver, the wrench, and many other tools were created within only the last 100 years. Surely any craftsman would put these tools to work so that he could be most proficient"** A craftsman must also understand his purpose as his purpose is the sam as if it was back in the medieval ages. The purpose of a drill to drill holes is the same, a hammer to bang down nails is also the same. Though times have changed and we need to defend ourselves the same way, to fight. The techniques are evolved alittle but they are primarily the same.

[rsoliman4]

oraenor you duffus head!

are you training under buk sing choy li fut in vince lacey's school? his school and one other are the only two kung fu schools i found to be extremely competent. i have started to take muay thai and i agree with sanjiyan99 that it is a human style, stances are comfy, training is rigorous, uses all the body's main weapons. stop that shit about sending a tank after someone. you can't even handle the small gun between your legs, thanks to your mama and the draconian ban on firearms that your country australia has legislated. so forget that crap about sending a tank after someone because only a military officer can do that, not even an enlisted man. you're no military officer, and you're no fighter, just a FOCKER. you say this shit and that shit about combining animals was the same thing the stupid old sifu said. the only animal style you know is the one your mother taught you, the doggy style! now go combine with yo mama! ASSUME THE POSITION!

[Broadsword2004]

Firstly, let me just say you are an inperspective MORON. The human style is weapons since we are the animals that use tools to do out bidding.
Secondly to emphasise my first point, we are on TOP of the food chain because we use TOOLS and that our skills and strengths are useless against most animals.I will prove my point by DARING you to wrestle with a hungry tiger.
Third the animals are guidance of the state of mind, fighting fierce with a crane style will be useless but will be useful with tiger. It is the user that will determine the outcome.
Forth, the animals represent the name of a move, like finger thrust is like a snakes head and grappling hand is like a tigers claw.
Fifth, humans are pretty useless ANIMALS(believe it or not!) without tools and brain, use it!
Sixth, never call muay thai a human system ever again, otherwise I will send a real human style after you, an army tank!

Uhhhh.....Muay Thai and boxing and kicking arts are all human styles pretty much, any art involving slapping, biting, wrestling, grappling, punching, kneeing, elbowing, etc.....are human styles; ALL PRIMATES DO THE ABOVE. The martial arts that utilize these things, if they are effective, simply teach one how to refine those skills so that they can use them most effectively against another person.

But punching, kneeing, slapping, elbowing, etc....are primal things, apes do them in fights. As for animal styles, I think those are bull****.

The only reason humans need weapons to fight an animal is because animals are FAR STRONGER, FASTER, AND MORE AGILE then humans are. Look at a silverback gorilla. You pit a tiger against a human, without a weapon, the human is a deadman. You pit a silverback gorilla, another animal that is similar to the human in how it will fight, and the tiger is gonna get bodyslammed onto the ground, bitten ferociously, and most likely get its skull crushed. It will get punched extremely hard and get the crap kicked out of it most likely. And if it doesn't, it is still going to have a hell of a time against the silverback. The gorilla will do all of these things using the same basic moves a human naturally will do, only the gorilla ways like 600 pounds and has far more strength and speed.

Trying to use animal systems to fight is stupid. Humans are humans, they should fight like humans. When encountering a bigger, stronger animal, humans gang up on it or use weapons.

If you want to look at more legit animal systems, try the Korean arts, at least their animal systems are supposed to try to adapt the animal's movements to those a human would do.

And forthly, tiger is a wuss cat. It has been proven time and time again that tigers are not fighters, they are hunters. The true battlecat is the male African lion. The ONLY tigers to ever defeat the male lions are the Bengal tigers, and that is because those tigers are large, and also they live in an enviroment where competition for food and females is very, VERY fierce. Thus, they fight like maniacs, so that even when pitted against lions, they attack and attack and attack and attack and attack and attack (you get the picture).

But you're average tigers don't know crap about fighting, they know how to hunt other animals and bring them down, which is basically by running up to them, slashing, biting their neck. Sometimes suffocation is done too (or at least I saw female lion do that to a buffalo I think it was). But the average tiger avoids fighting whenever possible. It doesn't like it. It does not have any kind of "ferociousness" when it fights in the way the lion does (with the exception of the Bengal). But the Chinese systems were not created with knowledge of the Bengal.

Learn to fight like a human would. Even if you ever have to fight an animal, you still fight the human ways (bite, punch, pound with fists, kick) etc.....if you encounter a dog, that is what you do. If you encounter a mountain lion, those you can sometimes scare off if they are beginners and aren't sure of a human's fighting ability. If you scream at them (kiai or kiap, whatever) and throw rocks and such at them, you can sometimes get them to leave. But that's still using the methods a human uses to fight (by the way don't go trying to find a mountain lion to try that because experienced mountain lions know they can bring down a human fairly easily, so the lion will just be like, "Aight, let's go at it" and kill you).

[Broadsword2004]

Whups, correction on one thing, tigers aren't wuss cats, that is bad, because all tigers is has been shown pretty much care very much for their mates, and will fight to protect them; but in terms of natural fighting ability, tigers aren't too great.

[jubaji]

but in terms of natural fighting ability, tigers aren't too great.

wtf