MMA Sport fighting and Kung Fu combative, the real difference...

[TTEscrima]

No body is disrespecting the validity of traditional martial arts?

Errrrr uh huh?

[KenshiRyan]

So while you may not respect their validity in combat the men who are tasked with the protection of your country do.

No body is disrespecting the validity of traditional martial arts?

[TTEscrima]

You just said that the article I posted says that Spec Ops is favoring "traditional martial arts." The article does not say that. Once again, do you have any cites to back up what you're saying?

One thing you have to learn about the Military is that the ability to read between the lines is far more important than whats actually said.

I know Kelly, I know his background and I know how he feels about the influence of MMA on military combatives.

Here's another article about Kelly and the program, he makes it quite clear how he feels about MMA in the military since you seem to need it spelled out.

"Worden said he resents the influence the mixed martial arts community has on combatives for Soldiers.

“It’s not a sport,” Worden said. “That’s what we need to get away from. I don’t appreciate guys bringing sport into a Soldier’s self-defense.”

“Combat ain’t about tapping out,” Rodgers said. “It’s about survival.”

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/tactical-military-law-enforcement-training/30046-instructor-lets-students-know-combatives-all-about-survival.html

Is the Kelly Worden you're referring to this one: Kelly Worden - Close Combat Instructor - ICCIA

At least from the description on this particular website, it seems like his training is focused primarily on weapons. That makes sense to me. Once again, if you're arguing that, for purely self-defense purposes, having and being trained with a weapon is better, you will not get any argument from me about it. I agree with you. I'd rather have a knife than BJJ anyday.

This website also says that he has a background in boxing and kickboxing. Two "sport" arts which you failed to mention in your post.

I've been friends with Kelly since the late 80's, I've NEVER seen him teach boxing or kickboxing and I've spent many an hour in his presence, but he may well teach them in some circumstances in order to communicate on a level with the people present at the time. In case you missed it read Kelly's quote I posted above about bringing sports to combatives.

I didn't find much on this guy's background, so I'll take your word for it. But would note some caution in it. Just because a person has a "background" in Wing Chun does not mean that he would design a system around it. I have a "background" in Tae Kwon Do, but if I had to design a system, it would not be based on Tae Kwon Do.

If you need it spelled out for you, you're probably not the target audience for the message in the first place. It's clear from the choices made by SF that they prefer people with TMA backgrounds to the MMA crowd. Do you think they hire boat mechanics to work on airplanes? Well they don't hire TMA people to teach MMA either, apply some critical thinking and open your mind up, free yourself from the hype.

I didn't realize classified information was discussed on E Budo! Awesome OpSec!

I already stated the links had been censored, you're really not trying to learn anything, you're set in defend your beliefs mode, your loss not mine.

I'll repeat - I'm not saying that what you're saying is untrue. But you haven't really provided the evidence of it thus far. You can see why people might be unpersuaded, right?

You posted 2 links yourself describing how SF is not not happy with MMA for combatives, and you want me to persuade you? Please explain what arts are left when you remove MMA from the mix? If they don't like MMA and hired TMA instructors with a CMA background what do you suppose they might be interested in learning?

[jubaji]

Yes, he's trying to say the only thing he's ever tried to say - kiss his ass and agree with everything he ever writes or he'll go into a little hissy fit.

[USArmyBJJ]

Well, the man who has in charge of training the unit in question (1st Special Forces Group) has been the same instructor for the last 7 years: Kelly Worden. Kelly's well known for his teaching of Edged weapons, the bastion, Wing Chun, Arnis, Aikido, Sambo, Isshin Ryu Karate and his own system synthesized from the TMA's called Sibot.

You just said that the article I posted says that Spec Ops is favoring "traditional martial arts." The article does not say that. Once again, do you have any cites to back up what you're saying?

Is the Kelly Worden you're referring to this one: Kelly Worden - Close Combat Instructor - ICCIA

At least from the description on this particular website, it seems like his training is focused primarily on weapons. That makes sense to me. Once again, if you're arguing that, for purely self-defense purposes, having and being trained with a weapon is better, you will not get any argument from me about it. I agree with you. I'd rather have a knife than BJJ anyday.

This website also says that he has a background in boxing and kickboxing. Two "sport" arts which you failed to mention in your post.

Dieter is the head of the CQC program for Special Operations Command and his background is also Wing Chun, Tai Chi and several other CMA systems.

I didn't find much on this guy's background, so I'll take your word for it. But would note some caution in it. Just because a person has a "background" in Wing Chun does not mean that he would design a system around it. I have a "background" in Tae Kwon Do, but if I had to design a system, it would not be based on Tae Kwon Do.

The actual POI is classified and the links I had for the request to replace MMA with LINE have been censored but if you read E Budo where SGT Larsen posts it's mentioned there but they don't allow linking to their forum from other forums.

I didn't realize classified information was discussed on E Budo! Awesome OpSec!

I'll repeat - I'm not saying that what you're saying is untrue. But you haven't really provided the evidence of it thus far. You can see why people might be unpersuaded, right?

I said all I'm saying on the subject if you don't get it, you're not prepared to understand.

Well, maybe not. Does anyone else understand what TTEscrima is trying to say?

[TTEscrima]

For reference, here is the article I posted: 1ST Special Forces Group (Airborne) develops functional combatives program for operators, support elements

Where does it say that they are preferring traditional arts?? It says that they are branching out beyond MMA, but nowhere does it say that they are preferring "traditional arts." In fact, I specifically asked you before for a cite that said that they are favoring CMA, and you did not provide it. I'm certainly not going to say that the cite doesn't exist - but I haven't seen it.

Well, the man who is in charge of training the unit in question (1st Special Forces Group) has been the same instructor for the last 7 years: Kelly Worden. Kelly's well known for his teaching of Edged weapons, the bastion, Wing Chun, Arnis, Aikido, Sambo, Isshin Ryu Karate and his own system synthesized from the TMA's called Sibot.

Dieter is the head of the CQC program for Special Operations Command and his background is also Wing Chun, Tai Chi and several other CMA systems. The actual POI is classified and the links I had for the request to replace MMA with LINE have been censored but if you read E Budo where SGT Larsen posts it's mentioned there but they don't allow linking to their forum from other forums.

I'm not really certain what you're talking about here. If you're saying that it's better for self-defense purposes to carry a weapon, you won't get any argument from me. But I think that's beside the point of this particular discussion thread.

I said all I'm saying on the subject if you don't get it, you're not prepared to understand.

[USArmyBJJ]

Even the article BJJARMY posted pointed out that the traditional arts were their preferred means of survival over the MMA systems.

For reference, here is the article I posted: 1ST Special Forces Group (Airborne) develops functional combatives program for operators, support elements

Where does it say that they are preferring traditional arts?? It says that they are branching out beyond MMA, but nowhere does it say that they are preferring "traditional arts." In fact, I specifically asked you before for a cite that said that they are favoring CMA, and you did not provide it. I'm certainly not going to say that the cite doesn't exist - but I haven't seen it.

I'm sure the people who want to disarm the country are tickled pink that MMA has become the rage and the systems the SF rely on are being ignored.

I'm not really certain what you're talking about here. If you're saying that it's better for self-defense purposes to carry a weapon, you won't get any argument from me. But I think that's beside the point of this particular discussion thread.

[TTEscrima]

When the Shaolin warriors here start packing guns and wearing body armor I'll be happy to take some kung fu lessons... Until then I have little to fear from snake, mantis, tiger, crane, dragon...etc...bugs and birds and mythical creatures are cool but seriously? I'm not exactly struck cold with fear of the lethal techniques and vital targets...

Phui.

They aren't Shaolin, but you better believe the finest warriors this county produces wear body armor, carry an extensive tool set that includes firearms, edged weapons and...Chinese Martial arts training. They seem to prefer systems based on putting their weapons to use in the most beneficial ways possible, and that requires knowing where the best places to target those weapons to achieve their intended goals in the fastest way possible. Even the article BJJARMY posted pointed out that the traditional arts were their preferred means of survival over the MMA systems. Kelly Worden and James Keating teach CMA systems to SF and so does Dieter. So while you may not respect their validity in combat the men who are tasked with the protection of your country do. I'm sure the people who want to disarm the country are tickled pink that MMA has become the rage and the systems the SF rely on are being ignored.

[USArmyBJJ]

I've tried to give TigerClaw the benefit of the doubt this entire time, but the numerous inconsistencies in his various stories are really starting to make me wonder...Oh, well.

[Sagacious Lu]

You've got no idea what your talking about.

After reading a few of TigerClaws posts this is the only rational conclusion. For a while I thought he was a troll but, sadly, I think he really believes his own bullshit.

[KenshiRyan]

I know boxers and have studied their fighting for a long time. As far as wrestlers I have studied them also .

Lol there he goes again!

apparently he's gone from; not wanting to waste his time learning boxing, to having studied boxing for a long time!

I was even offered a job in a MMA club, now get this, "TEACHING KUNG FU".

I dont get it? isnt your entire reason for making this thread to show how kung fu doesnt work in a sports enviroment because its so "deadly"?

now your telling us you've been asked to teach kung fu at an mma school? Where the hell are you going with this?

That crouching tiger hidden dragon brain of yours is really spouting bull crap now.

[KenshiRyan]

I am often in the boxing gym near me and talking with other boxers and MMA people. I watch them talk with them and at times share techniques. I was even offered a job in a MMA club, now get this, "TEACHING KUNG FU".

Riiiiight, so you've said you have no interest in learning boxing:

I truthfully would not waste my time learning boxing, or wrestling.

Yet now your saying your in a boxing gym often and sharing techniques with other boxers?

so your a lier now aswell, Great.
You've got no idea what your talking about.

[JadeDragon]

I'm not exactly struck cold with fear of the lethal techniques and vital targets...
Phui.

Well thats good because the same goes here......I'm not "struck cold with fear" from choke holds and arm bars from a bunch of guys rolling on a mat wanting to prove their machismo by trying to fight everyone that looks at them the wrong way (or in any way for that matter).

[USArmyBJJ]

I don't want to give out his name, I don't want to give any more names on the net. There are so many that would bother others here.

It was from another post I made and his response. I just thought it was interesting.

I don't want his name. I asked for a website link. I thought it was interesting (just like you) and want to read more.

Did a quick Google search and didn't find this post. Do you mind posting a link? I'm interested in what the guy has to say.

As far as the above quote, I agree with it. That would put a lot of the argument to rest (somewhat, at least). Maybe you could be the first!

I don't want to give out his name, I don't want to give any more names on the net. There are so many that would bother others here.

It was from another post I made and his response. I just thought it was interesting.