MMA Sport fighting and Kung Fu combative, the real difference...

The driver backed up and I went falling to the ground with this big dummy on top of me. I reached up and guaged his eyes. I poked as far back as i could. It was really gross but it got him off me and he left me alone after that. His eyes teared up and were all red and swollen. It worked for me thats all that matters, right?

I think this clearly demonstrated what you were saying to the doubters of Kung Fu's dangerous techniques.

The truth is, that many who doubt the effectiveness of kung Fu don't find out how dangerous it is until it is too late. But by that time they have eyes full of red puss.

[jubaji]

I didn't realize that talking about martial arts on a martial arts discussion forum was out-of-bounds....It seems odd to me that you would come to debate on an internet forum, and then ask that no one respond to you except on PM. Strange.

This is what happens when certain folks feel threatened/exposed and have a reason to be insecure about certain things.

[jubaji]

we strike sand bags to strengthen the fingers. We use punching bags and manikins (sic) to practice on. We practice obviously don't actually make contact. we don't train full contact with these strikes.

.................exactly

[jubaji]

I've been poked in the eye before while grappling - but it wasn't on purpose. It hurt, but it didn't stop me from completing the match.

Exactly. Same here.

[jubaji]

NO I have never killed anyone with these "deadly" techniques.

That's what I thought.

[KenshiRyan]

Well thats just it, they dont relise that striking the eye's and groin etc arent hard at all and anyone can attack those area's, its getting into the right position to do so and getting the right timing that reqiures training, and thats what any martial art will teach you including the ones with a sport element.

like is it reeeeeealllly that hard for one of thse kung fu practitioners to think "well hey! I may actually miss that eye strike on this boxer, (considering he is used to dodging strikes to the head, and has done so many times within the ring which is a stressful scenario),
in which case I may be taking a right straight to my jaw which may just knock me out which means I would not be able to fight him anymore, I guess that means a boxer has just as much chance of beating me as I have of beating him"

Tigerclaw's ran away, garth got banned. I guess our point cant be proven any clearer.

Jade dragon, please re read this post, I am actually tired of trying to explain the exact same thing over and over again to you guys. kung fu is just like any other art. get over it.

[JadeDragon]

Sorry if I took your post the wrong way. There are 1 or 2 on this forum that try to bash kung fu and try to say these tactics I say I have used will not work in real life when in fact I have used them successfully. I got to leave work now but will be happy to chat to you yomorrow more about this. Again, sorry for misinterpreting your intentions.

[USArmyBJJ]

When I sparr in class we go pretty hard (almost full contact but stopping right short of full contact). We use hand gloves and foot pads mouth guarn and groin cup. So it's not like I only train for the eyes, ear, throat, etc.... And I do have a wrestling background (4 years in h.s.) as well and studied BJJ for a short while (one year).

Good. You should understand that I'm not attacking you or your fighting ability. I'm only raising the question of whether the training system that Kung Fu uses is efficient and effective.

[USArmyBJJ]

USArmy.......why is it that you are making a big deal out of this??

I didn't realize that talking about martial arts on a martial arts discussion forum was out-of-bounds....

If you don't think that these strikes work to these areas then don't use them. Simple as that. I use them when the opportunity arises.

I actually said the opposite.

They have worked for me. They may not work for everyone. If the chance to use them doesn't present itself then I don't use them. I fight using regular punches and kicks just like anyone else does. I use front jabs, hooks, backfists, front kicks, side kicks, roundhouse kicks, etc.... Your trying to make it sound as if all I do is go for the eyes, throat, etc.... It isn't.

I didn't try to make it sound like that. Sorry if it came out that way. I was merely engaging in a discussion about training tactics. You note that those strikes "may not work for everyone." I'm only asking you how a Kung Fu fighter would know, before having to defend themselves in a life or death situation, what actually works for them. How do they get a chance to actually test their techniques in a realistic situation?

I only go for those areas when I feel my life is in danger and when the opportunity presents itself.

You said earlier that you gouged someone's eyes in a fight over some argument at a pool hall. I am happy to hear that you now only use them when your life is in danger. I'm not being sarcastic about that at all. I really don't think people should engage in physical violence except a) for sport, and b) in a true self-defense situation.

If you have anything further to ask or say to me then please PM me. Thanks.

It seems odd to me that you would come to debate on an internet forum, and then ask that no one respond to you except on PM. Strange.

[JadeDragon]

You know, you don't even know the details of the argument that started the fight at this pool hall. I just gave the short version of it because I don't feel like typing every little minute detail. There was more to it than what I said. Why are you so hell bent on trying to keep on and on. And yes I think what I did was justified considering how LARGE this person was. I felt threatened. And he assualted me first.

When I sparr in class we go pretty hard (almost full contact but stopping right short of full contact). We use hand gloves and foot pads mouth guarn and groin cup. So it's not like I only train for the eyes, ear, throat, etc.... And I do have a wrestling background (4 years in h.s.) as well and studied BJJ for a short while (one year).

[JadeDragon]

USArmy.......why is it that you are making a big deal out of this?? If you don't think that these strikes work to these areas then don't use them. Simple as that. I use them when the opportunity arises. They have worked for me. They may not work for everyone. If the chance to use them doesn't present itself then I don't use them. I fight using regular punches and kicks just like anyone else does. I use front jabs, hooks, backfists, front kicks, side kicks, roundhouse kicks, etc.... Your trying to make it sound as if all I do is go for the eyes, throat, etc.... It isn't. I only go for those areas when I feel my life is in danger and when the opportunity presents itself. If you have anything further to ask or say to me then please PM me. Thanks.

[USArmyBJJ]

For different targets you have different type strikes. For example, for throat strikes we use spear hand strike (or sometimes called snake head strikes). For this we strike sand bags to strengthen the fingers. for the ears we use palm slaps to each ear at the same time to smash the eardrum. For the eyes we train to poke them using different type strikes. You can use one or two fingers to poke or even a thumb strike to the eyes. You can use a tiger claw to rake the eyes. And there are several other strikes as well. We use punching bags and manikins to practice on. When we practice these techniques we obviously strike at the target but we don't actually make contact with the eyes or throat or other vital target due to the damage it could cause.

You said earlier thought that hitting a human and hitting a sandbag is different. I agree with you on that. How do you actually practice hitting vital targets on a human so that you know you will be able to do it on the off-chance that you need to defend yourself? What are the training methods and do you consider them to be the most efficient methods?

It's why I was drawing the analogy that, I practice the technique of punching on a punching bag. But I practice actually punching a guy in the face by, you know, punching a guy in the face (in practice). This increases the timing and feel of the strike so that I know I can perform it in a pressure-tested environment. What is the equivalent in your training?

One situation that I was in was at a pool hall. I had been playing someone some pool for money. We ended up getting in a verbal argument first then it went outside to a fight. He played college football and he went to tackle me around my waist. I went falling backwards onto the hood of a car that was sittiing out in front waiting for a parking spot. The driver backed up and I went falling to the ground with this big dummy on top of me. I reached up and guaged his eyes. I poked as far back as i could. It was really gross but it got him off me and he left me alone after that. His eyes teared up and were all red and swollen. It worked for me thats all that matters, right?

I hope you're more mature now and aren't gouging out people's eyes over pool hall arguments. Do you consider the force you used to be excessive?

I hope this clarifies things a little bit. Believe it or not even though we don't train full contact with these strikes they do work in certain situations and aren't as hard to pull off as you might think. They are mainly used in situations where your "tied up" with an opponent or he may grab your shirt or your hair and he's not in a position to move around a lot. I don't just go out throwing finger pokes like a boxer would front jabs or hooks.....lol. Now that would be ridiculous.

I'm not sure that anyone doubts that the strikes "could" work in certain situations. Maybe a few do, but I don't. The question is more of efficiency.

I'll give an example: A staple of a boxer's arsenal is the left hook. I was never really good at it. I thought I was, but when I started live sparring, I realized that I wasn't good at it. Time kept going. I kept failing at it. But those failures taught me that I had to practice it better and that I had to modify my style a little to make it work for me. In other words, the full contact sparring allowed me to pressure test the theories and then adapt them to my specific style and characteristics.

If you are only practicing your arsenal on the night (as in, in a real self-defense situation), aren't you pressure-testing the technique just a little too late?

Now don't forget that the outcome of a fight still depends on how experienced the two fighters are and how much training they've had. It's not the style that determines the outcome. Someone in Jiu Jitsu can beat a person that practices a TMA (Chinese or Japanese) and vice versa in my oppinion.

I think there's a lot of truth to that statement. At the same time, I do think that certain styles and certain training techniques are more likely to yield results more efficiently. My hypothesis is that sport martial arts are more likely to efficiently breed good fighters because each fighter consistenly pressure-tests their techniques and thus, marries theory and application. What is your hypothesis?

[JadeDragon]

Of course. I was thrown off a bit by your reference to "deadly techniques." Now, I understand that you were only talking about "striking vital areas" (not sure exactly what that means). So, I have a couple of questions:

1) How do you practice "striking vital areas" on a punching bag or sand bag? Do you paint the thing or what? I mean, I practice punching technique on a heavy bag. But I practice actually hitting someone in the head on a live partner during sparring.

2) If you're pulling the technique instead of actually executing it, how do you train for the reality of a fight when a) someone is resisting you and moving around, and b) has a particular reaction to each technique. How do you know that these "vital area" strikes really work unless you use them?

3) Can you explain to me the scenario you mentioned where you were grappling with someone; they were on top; you poked them in the eye; and then they quit fighting. I've been poked in the eye before while grappling - but it wasn't on purpose. It hurt, but it didn't stop me from completing the match. So, sorry, but I'm somewhat incredulous when someone says that an eye poke is going to stop a seriously determined attacker from attacking. So, I'm interested in the scenario. You've been somewhat vague about it so far, and an explication of the story might help a bit.

For different targets you have different type strikes. For example, for throat strikes we use spear hand strike (or sometimes called snake head strikes). For this we strike sand bags to strengthen the fingers. for the ears we use palm slaps to each ear at the same time to smash the eardrum. For the eyes we train to poke them using different type strikes. You can use one or two fingers to poke or even a thumb strike to the eyes. You can use a tiger claw to rake the eyes. And there are several other strikes as well. We use punching bags and manikins to practice on. When we practice these techniques we obviously strike at the target but we don't actually make contact with the eyes or throat or other vital target due to the damage it could cause.

One situation that I was in was at a pool hall. I had been playing someone some pool for money. We ended up getting in a verbal argument first then it went outside to a fight. He played college football and he went to tackle me around my waist. I went falling backwards onto the hood of a car that was sittiing out in front waiting for a parking spot. The driver backed up and I went falling to the ground with this big dummy on top of me. I reached up and guaged his eyes. I poked as far back as i could. It was really gross but it got him off me and he left me alone after that. His eyes teared up and were all red and swollen. It worked for me thats all that matters, right?

I hope this clarifies things a little bit. Believe it or not even though we don't train full contact with these strikes they do work in certain situations and aren't as hard to pull off as you might think. They are mainly used in situations where your "tied up" with an opponent or he may grab your shirt or your hair and he's not in a position to move around a lot. I don't just go out throwing finger pokes like a boxer would front jabs or hooks.....lol. Now that would be ridiculous.

Now don't forget that the outcome of a fight still depends on how experienced the two fighters are and how much training they've had. It's not the style that determines the outcome. Someone in Jiu Jitsu can beat a person that practices a TMA (Chinese or Japanese) and vice versa in my oppinion.

[Tant01]

Da rules

Notice in post #95 "KenshiRyan" also called me an idiot, so you may want to ban him as well. At least apply the forum rules to all posters equally.

I don't mind the occasional flame wars here. I think we tolerate folks breaking these rules with ease. Some of the most hilarious posts I've ever read violate the rules...

I don't LIKE to "moderate" so called adults.

Any action I take against ANY member is at MY own discretion. No one implied it would be FAIR or "equal"...

[USArmyBJJ]

Of course its different on a live human. It's just like going from punching a heavy bag to a human. Do you notice a difference when YOU punch a bag vs. a human???

Of course. I was thrown off a bit by your reference to "deadly techniques." Now, I understand that you were only talking about "striking vital areas" (not sure exactly what that means). So, I have a couple of questions:

1) How do you practice "striking vital areas" on a punching bag or sand bag? Do you paint the thing or what? I mean, I practice punching technique on a heavy bag. But I practice actually hitting someone in the head on a live partner during sparring.

2) If you're pulling the technique instead of actually executing it, how do you train for the reality of a fight when a) someone is resisting you and moving around, and b) has a particular reaction to each technique. How do you know that these "vital area" strikes really work unless you use them?

3) Can you explain to me the scenario you mentioned where you were grappling with someone; they were on top; you poked them in the eye; and then they quit fighting. I've been poked in the eye before while grappling - but it wasn't on purpose. It hurt, but it didn't stop me from completing the match. So, sorry, but I'm somewhat incredulous when someone says that an eye poke is going to stop a seriously determined attacker from attacking. So, I'm interested in the scenario. You've been somewhat vague about it so far, and an explication of the story might help a bit.