MMA Sport fighting and Kung Fu combative, the real difference...

Garth said this in response to KenshiRyan

You sound like a very angry individual with a lot of pent up rage. I came in here looking for an intelligent discussion with intelligent people in order to expand my knowledge about martial arts. I posted a reply that was not in the least inflammatory or rude to anyone, nor did I attack anyone personally. In response you reply in a very condescending tone about how I'm "annoying" you. So who is the bad guy here? I'm confused as to why you thought I was someone you needed to be rude to. Is it because the internet offers a degree of anonymity so you can release anger that you can't in real life, or are you actually this rude to everyone in real life as well? I doubt it, even if you were the best martial artist in the world if you went around like that in real life it wouldn't take too long before you offended the wrong person and he pulled out a knife or gun and shot you. It all comes down to self defense as well. It's not just about training your technique and conditioning your body. There is mental training as well. The ability to, when some asshole bumps shoulders with you or cuts you off in traffic and flips you off, to just ignore him and keep on walking instead of being drawn into a fight. That takes more intelligence and training than getting into a fight with him.

Well said, I feel the same about many here. It seems as if they are out to attack and bash others.

I want reasonable discussion and to help others serious martial artist to share techniques and learn from eachother, we can post videos and pics and techniques and learn alot if we could get past the mockers and those who seem to be only here to attack others.

[jubaji]

You keep talking, tigerclown, and you keep making it worse.

I think he's on a quest to overtake tigerclown as the biggest detriment to TMAs here.

Jubaji, when you talk about TMA, it is a joke, you are a joke. Please don't try to talk on and use the expression TMA in your words, it is absurd when you do.

[Ben Grimm]

TigerClown is bad enough. I hope what your saying isn't true.

[jubaji]

I think he's on a quest to overtake tigerclown as the biggest detriment to TMAs here.

[Ben Grimm]

Jade,
No offence man, but you're starting to sound more like TigerClaw.

[KenshiRyan]

Firstly, I am not some mma guy, Im a martial artist.

Secondly:

nd I'll say the same thing to you and every other doubter of kung fu.

Ok Ill re post the start of my last comment since you obviously havent read it:

You need to read our posts instead of making up a defencive argument where there has never been any attempts to discredit kung fu, where saying that while kung fu does have advantages and benefits so too does EVERY other art including sports arts, to compare them is rediculous and inaccurate as there are far to many variables.

Instead of tiring yourself explain the same crap over and over again, why dont you properly read what I am saying and quit being so arrogant to just ignore me and continue complaining about somthing that hasnt happend.

Kenshi, Please read MY post because I'm tired of explaining over and over again too. Kung Fu stylist don't just go for eyes, throat, etc... We do throw regular strikes and kicks believe it or not. We know how to backfist, elbow strike, throw side kicks, front kicks, etc..... I know that may be hard for you and all the mma guys to believe but its true. I promise. And I'll say the same thing to you and every other doubter of kung fu........MMA is just a sport art, get over it.

Anyone can be beat on any given day. That goes for a kung fu stylist or a MMA practitioner.

This is actually amazing at how utterly blind and stupid you are, If you arent prepared to read what Im saying and understand it please STOP replying to me with the same crap.
Again if you go back and READ my post "dear Tigerclaw"
You'll hopefully this time understand my point, as I have clearly explained it for the hundreth time the benefits of a sport's enviroment and how it relates to real defence. If you have trouble understanding it I suggest getting you ask me instead of acting like I've hassled kungfu and you have a valid point to voice.

[JadeDragon]

Jade dragon, please re read this post, I am actually tired of trying to explain the exact same thing over and over again to you guys. kung fu is just like any other art. get over it.

Kenshi, Please read MY post because I'm tired of explaining over and over again too. Kung Fu stylist don't just go for eyes, throat, etc... We do throw regular strikes and kicks believe it or not. We know how to backfist, elbow strike, throw side kicks, front kicks, etc..... I know that may be hard for you and all the mma guys to believe but its true. I promise. And I'll say the same thing to you and every other doubter of kung fu........MMA is just a sport art, get over it.

Anyone can be beat on any given day. That goes for a kung fu stylist or a MMA practitioner.

[USArmyBJJ]

You can listen to what people who've never served a day in the military spout their BS opinions on the subject all you want, they'll be right about as often as a broken clock and wrong just as often too, but somehow they still act like they know what they're talking about.

I hope you're not implying that I'm lying about my miltary service. That would be very inappropriate. I'll assume that you're talking about something else, though.

[USArmyBJJ]

TTEscrima,

You seem really angry all the time. Why is that? Trust me, man. The world is a beautiful place. Go out and enjoy it! I mean, this is just the internet. There's no need to get a heart attack over anything said here. (And after 20 years in the service, I'm sure that you're at the age where heart attacks are common...j/k)

Either way, you're probably right. I probably misread the article - and got distracted by the pretty picture of the soldier using the knee-on-stomach position in full battle rattle . I did some searches for "Defanging the Serpent," and it seems to be grappling, muay thai, and a STRONG emphasis on weapons fighting. That makes sense to me. There's still no proof of your assertion that they replaced MAC with traditional CMA techniques though. So really, I'd still love to see a cite for it because I'm very interested in the thinking that went into it.

In the end, my point was that pressure-testing a self-defense system is a critical part of training. Soldiers (and, I would assume, especially Spec Ops guys) constantly pressure-test their techniques in combat. Your average joe on the street doesn't have that option, so it's best for him/her to compete in a sports martial art that can closely mimic a real self-defense situation. I'm interested in your thoughts on that dilineation.

Anyway, considering that this discussion was supposed to be about CMA vs. "Sport fighting," I don't know how we got stuck on military combatives. I probably brought it up. Or Tiger Claw. I don't know.

[KenshiRyan]

I think this clearly demonstrated what you were saying to the doubters of Kung Fu's dangerous techniques.

The truth is, that many who doubt the effectiveness of kung Fu don't find out how dangerous it is until it is too late. But by that time they have eyes full of red puss.

I dont doubt the effectiveness of the technique at all I just dont see how pushing my fingers into a guys eyes requires any training at all? I put my finger on his eye and push as far as I can pretty simple?. Notice how anyone can do this? including a sports fighter, the whole "edge" you claim to have over a sports fighter is somthing any one can do.

The truth is, many who doubt the effectiveness of sport's fighting dont find out how wrong they were until its too late. But by that time they have a throbbing head and broken ribs or limbs.

[KenshiRyan]

Dear TigerClaw..

You need to read our posts instead of making up a defencive argument where there has never been any attempts to discredit kung fu, where saying that while kung fu does have advantages and benefits so too does EVERY other art including sports arts, to compare them is rediculous and inaccurate as there are far to many variables.

The benefit of sports fighting is you are put in a high pressure enviroment that mimics the mind set of a self defence situation, you learn to handle the immense pressure that comes with any physical confrontation, making you stronger mentally and physically.
To be honest full contact sparring, using your techniques with full intention even with rules restricting you is by far one of the best training techniques, obviously there's alot more work to be done before hand with technique etc, but actually applying yourself to a situation that mimics what your training for and managing to pull off the techniques you are learning is far more beneficial to you and your self defence than non contact or pulling back just before hitting.

What Im getting at is the sports enviroment - even with rules and restrictions on what you can use - mimics the mind set of a self defence situation almost as acurately as the real thing, whenever I enter the ring, I always have a sense of fear thinking, crap what if they knock me round real good?, what if this happens? and what if this happens?, sound pretty similar to if someones getting agro towards you in the street doesnt it?

Its the mental training that give's martial artists who participate in a sports enviroment aswell (and any martial art that has full contact sparring like a sport art) such an incredible edge over other martial artist.

My honest opinion is that a fighter who learns to fight with just his fists in a high stress enviroment that comes with sports fighting, will be a much more accomplished martial artist than somone who practices eye strikes against the air.
I mean if the kung fu stylists went out and was involved in many self defence situations where he had used what he knows properly and in a high stress enviroment then you've got one bad ass martial artist, THEY'VE APPLIED WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNT FOR THE SITUATION THEY ARE TRAINING FOR.

The massive problem with alot of kung fu stylists (not all) a large proportion have never had to APPLY what they have learnt in a high stress enviroment,
The fact that they PLAN to attack the eyes IS NOT ENOUGH to rely on, you have to have applied it and know you can pull it off even when you get a hook to your jaw or a kick to the thigh or punch to the gut.

Your whole argument is based on how sports fighting is not as good for self defence as kung fu is because the kung fu practitioner PLANS to attack my Eyes, well just as a kung fu fighter can PLAN to attack the eyes, SO CAN A SPORTS FIGHTER - who is defending their lives at this point against strikes to vital areas -,

so basically you've got a fighter whos planned to attack certain regions, and a fighter who's applied what theyve learnt repeatitively knows they can handle the stress, knows they can use the attack because they've done it thousands of times, and if its a life threatening situation PLAN to attack vital regions aswell if they have to.

I dont know how much clearer I can explain it too you.

If you dont get it after this, I give up theres no hope.

(ps: excuse the spelling, its been a long 6am-1030pm day of uni and boxing and at this point a cant be stuffed going back and checking haha, I probly got a bit repititive there but I think we've all had to explain the same thing several times to these guys)

[jubaji]

Well, I could go searching I suppose but why bother

As I was saying...

[TTEscrima]

I did searches on both sites and found nothing. I don't think I'm asking too much for you to post a cite when making a rather large claim - especially when a relatively recent article I posted seems to say the exact opposite.

Well, I could go searching that piece to prove my point I suppose but why bother, since as you noted, your article is more current. I actually read the article you posted since I knew it was contrary to the facts and sure enough, YOUR article is about the SF designing their own techniques BECAUSE THE ARMY MCMAP program didn't work!! Did you read the article or just the title?

Second paragraph:
"The techniques of the current Modern Army Combatives Program are essentially mixed-martial arts techniques that are certainly effective in individual cagefights and tournaments. However, these techniques may not be the best available for actual combat situations where Soldiers wear full battle kit."

"It was with this in mind that leaders within the unit began using their own experiences and knowledge to develop a fighting program called “Defanging the Serpent.”

“About 6 years ago (at 1st SFG’s 1st Battalion in Okinawa), then-Lt. Col. Wendt came to me about developing a combatives program,” said Chief Warrant Officer Maurice K. Duclos, co-founder of the program. “Together, in 2002, we came up with 30 standard moves that were learned by the entire 1st battalion.”

"“In developing this program, we wanted to stick to ‘most likely to happen’ scenarios and moves that are high-percentage payoff,” Duclos explained.

Wendt agreed, saying the moves in the updated program are more likely to be used by Soldiers conducting operations.

“We want Soldiers trained in combatives techniques that work in confusing combat situations,” said Wendt. “Cage fighters are very tough individuals with great techniques for that venue, but we are not training our Soldiers to be cage fighters in a one-on-one match or tournament.”

He further explained that 1st SFG Soldiers work “through, by and with” the populations of countries when deployed.

“Because we operate in these situations, it is important to know highly effective techniques in a system designed specifically for these combat
situations,” Wendt explained. “’Defanging the Serpent’ is a system that can be used by Soldiers who are wearing their full battle kit in situations that require different levels of lethality against single or multiple opponents. In other words, it is a system designed precisely for what our Soldiers face when deployed.”

................................................

You'll note that it was 2002 (according to your article) when the ARMY SF had already discarded the MMA program as useless for combat ops and began to invent their own system, "defanging the snake" ANYONE with much martial arts experience knows that ain't MMA jargon.

You can listen to what people who've never served a day in the military spout their BS opinions on the subject all you want, they'll be right about as often as a broken clock and wrong just as often too, but somehow they still act like they know what they're talking about.

[USArmyBJJ]

It's been posted here, and SOCNET feel free to look it up. I'm not trying to be short, but this subject was beaten to death here and dozens of other sites.

It's been posted here, and SOCNET feel free to look it up, I'm tired of posting it and debating it.

I did searches on both sites and found nothing. I don't think I'm asking too much for you to post a cite when making a rather large claim - especially when a relatively recent article I posted seems to say the exact opposite.

Navy, Master at Arms.

Navy? So not the real military. I'm kidding, of course.

Apparently you're also not familiar with their history, the first NCDU units wore swim trunks and only carried a knife when they went into Japanese strongholds to recon them. In current times they may not intend to engage in H2H but if you're familiar with war, things don't usually go as planned even when you're winning.

In one H2H encounter behind the lines an Army ranger had to be rescued from a Grandmother who took him down and choked him out while her sons escaped the raid, the Ranger had to be saved by teammates and the targets escaped while they were distracted...the exact protocol they were trained to use cost them the mission.

I don't doubt that it's true that, at times, they have to engage in hand to hand. But I can't imagine that it's a priority. Once again, I could be wrong - I often am. Considering that neither of us are Spec Ops, we can't speak with any personal experience, so I don't really know how to solve the conundrum.