Chi Sao

[Hardball]

Hey, how come you guys haven't discussed Chi Sao recently? With all the Kung Fu Talk and CMA talk it makes me wonder if Chi Sao is a useful exercise? Do you practice it in the traditional way? Do you modify it? What are the benefits/drawbacks of practicing Chi Sao? Thanks

[pstevens]

Chi Sao, is that a dish?...

JK... I have minimal chi sao training. In college there was a WC school right across the street and I knew a couple guys who went there. They taught me the principles: sensitivity, sticking with the hands to anticipate your opponent's movements, and trapping to create openings. It's about "feeling" your opponent.

In all honestly, chi sao is just an exercise. The range in which is performed is very hard to maintain in actual combat. There's something to be gained, but I wouldn't make it a focal point of combat training.

[Hardball]

I'm suprised there aren't more comments on Chi Sao.

[mellow]

Bumpity bump bump bump!

[benneil]

this is a good article about chi sao and its usefulness and how to train it...cant find the other thread where i posted it so here it is

Wing Chun - ???? - ???? - ??? - Los Angeles - San Gabriel - Orange County

3 Ranges of Our Wing Chun Part II
By John Paul

Short range is the range that is most associated with Wing Chun, even with those who are only remotely familiar with the style. This close range infighting is very advanced and can only be properly learned, practiced, and understood after the longer range concepts are fully grasped. This distance is also commonly known as trapping range. In Wing Chun we practice sticky hands, or chi sau for this.

The way my teacher taught me sticky hands is totally different from the other Wing Chun families that I have seen in person and on the internet.

First, the preliminary training for long range and mid range techniques teaches students in our family to close the gap, move in and "stick" to our opponent. Easier said than done. We spend a great deal of time perfecting our mobility, foot work, not wasting movements, stamina, speed, timing and agility.

This is the forward energy often mentioned in Wing Chun but hardly understood. Students in our family "bug the opponent like a bee or a fly or a hummingbird". Starting from a distance, as most confrontations do, and then ending up "too close for comfort to the opponent".

Every technique we use, every weapon we use, and every principle we follow carries this spirit. The close range principle is easily understood by soft style practitioners, but it seems to be mysterious to some Wing Chun artists. I will adress this later because it is very fundamental.

Once after sparring 3 or 4 people in a row, Sifu asked me, "Now, what do you think you can do better next time?" I thought for a second. Then I said,"Workout harder!", because I was completely out of breath. He said, "Hmm...no that's not it...once you get in, you don't know what to do!" At this point I am familiar with the long and medium ranges but the short range I have yet to master. We differ from other families of Wing Chun because we spend so much effort to close in, bypass the weapon and trap it that it puts our mind in a different place for applying finishing techniques. I don't see other families practice this. Im not speculating about their training per se, I mean that watching them fight they lose all other Wing Chun principles because they don't have this one.

My teacher says sticky hands is a fragmented part of Wing Chun training. There is more to Wing Chun than just that. As a result, Wing Chun has gotten a bad reputation for only looking good but with no practicality. That's why people try to mix it with Muay Thai or some other hard style of boxing when it comes to real fight training.

Totally incorrect.

Everyone who practices martial arts, has had a few fights, or is fairly intelligent when they start martial arts always gets the idea to take the best stuff from every style and create their own personal superstyle. In fact this is how martial arts evolves. But most people are not qualified to do this for one reason. In order to get the best from every style you practice requires years of training. But most people study only short while, or even worse they study for years but never fully grasp the principles and never master the style. So when they take from the style they only end up taking a few moves or techniques; never carrying with them the spirit, the essence of the style.

They dont get "the best stuff".

In our family one of our founders, Fung Siu Ching, incorporated Tai Chi grappling into our Wing Chun. Many people practice some form of Tai Chi and some form of Wing Chun and try to mix the two. So what makes ours different?

Well, Master Fung was well known to be a very experienced general, marshall and bounty hunter for the Qing. He had real hand to hand combat skill for most of his life. He knew Tai Chi grappling probably better than he knew his wife. It was in him, it was a part of him. A soft, internal style principle that is our Kung Fu is internal--its in your soul, your DNA. Many readers frown on the Wing Chun and Tai Chi relationship, and confuse us with some of the masters who add Tai Chi technigues into their Wing Chun techniques like adding apples and oranges together.

Some swear that Fung had studied Shaolin Crane Style (Shaolin practitioners have said this). Most of them have never heard that Ng Mui was from Aumei White Crane Cave (stated by the Master of White Eye Brow in a book called "Bak Mei Pi" and Master Sum Nung). The Aumei Pi style of Kung Fu is actually a family of many mixed styles of Shaolin and Wudong, by many masters of the two, over hundreds of years! It became a new fruit! Back to my point.

Closing the gap in our Wing Chun is similar to Xing Yi and Tai Chi principles. In both styles the master gets close. In Xing Yi they close in. In Tai Chi they allow the opponent to close in. We do similarly but still different. We move forward in a yielding manner. Once in close, short range, trapping range, the most deadly, powerful, accurate finishing blows are executed. In this range we also differ from other Wing Chun families because we emphasize much more stand up grappling, White Crane sweeping and throwing, take downs, and breaks.

[Hardball]

Thanks for the help, someone hijacked my thread. LOL It was you but I positive repped you anyway. LOL

[benneil]

hey so sorry!

thanks for the rep though

didnt mean to do that...i just agree with a lot of what this article said so i thought it best to post it.

[Hardball]

I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, I'll do it sometime this weekend. I just know I had a lot of fun taking WC especially on the wooden Dummy and the sil lim tao form. I never got to do chi sao that much nor learned the bill jee form or chum kil form.. I wouldn't mind going back to WC if I had the money and the time.

[futsaowingchun]

Hey, how come you guys haven't discussed Chi Sao recently? With all the Kung Fu Talk and CMA talk it makes me wonder if Chi Sao is a useful exercise? Do you practice it in the traditional way? Do you modify it? What are the benefits/drawbacks of practicing Chi Sao? Thanks

What is Chi Sao?


In the Fut Sao Wing Chun system, Chi Sao or Sticking Hands practice is not treated as simply a drill or sensitivity exercise as performed by some of the other Wing Chun lineages. In Fut Sao, the practice of Chi Sao, is treated and is equivalent to close quarter fighting. The skills one learns in Chi Sao practice will bring the practitioner to a higher level of development in his art. When one trains in Chi Sao one is not simply practicing a purely physical art but something that is also energy oriented and spiritual as well. When one concentrates on drills or applications one can clearly see that the practice becomes purely a physical and limits development in other areas. As one progresses in Chi Sao, one comes to realize it is not all about fighting but rather knowing yourself and your opponent. When one has reached a high level of proficiency in Chi Sao, the practice of simple drills and applications has almost no functionality. When practicing Chi Sao at such a high level all applications become possible. As mentioned earlier, if one just trains applications and drills he is only training the physical and not the energy side of the art which has no application yet is contained in all applications.

I hear all the time people say, "if your attacked on the street no one will Chi Sao you." Of course they will not Chi Sao you as Chi Sao is a way of training and an attack on your life is another matter. It seems to me people do not really understand the purpose of Chi Sao training, but something one has to realize is what one does in ones training is designed to build and develop real skills which can be applied at will. Chi Sao gives one the means necessary to reach that level of skill of which I am writing of. When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight. One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you've learned has any real value. Chi Sao is about control. If I can control myself and my partner during Chi Sao training then I know I have already won and do not need to go any further. In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I'll have survived or not. There is no playing; there are no points as seen in Chi Sao competitions.

Another point a lot of people seem to believe is that Chi Sao is merely "the rolling of the hands". Simply put, Chi Sao is not in the rolling, the contact point or the ability to always stick to the bridge. This brings me to another point, that Chi Sao "is not about always sticking or chasing the hand". It's not, as mentioned earlier it's about control. Chi Sao is found in any type of attack and the defense that one deploys in a real fight scenario. Chi Sao does not have to look a certain way. Again, the essence of Chi Sao is about control. Therefore, if I can control myself and your actions I'm using Chi Sao. WCK is very much based on maintaining a bridge which is conducive to Chi Sao training. Chi Sao training has many advantages over sparring. Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point. As sparring is also a good way to test and develop one's skills it is not the preferred way in Fut Sao Wing Chun system. Since Wing Chun is about controlled infighting it makes sense to use Chi Sao as a platform to test ones skills. Staying close and maintaining a bridge has an advantage over sparring where contact is lost. For a Wing Chun practitioner to be able to maintain a bridge is to his advantage while to someone like a boxer it is not. In fighting arts like Muay Thai or Western Boxing the idea of controlling the bridge is not part of the training, so Chi Sao is not needed for these types of arts. The advantage when you train with your partner in Chi Sao is that one does not need to gear-up as it is very safe to train granted that one has control. In sparring you must gear-up as there is no control and the idea is to pummel the opponent or score points as in point fighting. In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit. On the other hand, in sparring this is not possible one must hit the opponent. For beginners, psychologically, sparring can have negative effects due to the fear of being hit, and can ultimately affect their confidence and martial arts development.



--
Sifu Michael Mc Ilwrath
__________________

[Hardball]

Can some one interested in Wing Chun but not a practioner per se, cross train in Chi Sao? Would that defeat the purpose?

[futsaowingchun]

Can some one interested in Wing Chun but not a practioner per se, cross train in Chi Sao? Would that defeat the purpose?

NO I don't believe so.There is much you can learn from Chi Sao training even if your not Wing Chun person.

[Hardball]

NO I don't believe so.There is much you can learn from Chi Sao training even if your not Wing Chun person.

Good I think I am going to get back into Chi Sao with some of my students. Hey while I got your attention, what do you think of these attachmate wooden dummy contraptions that you fix on to a heavy bag? It's a wooden dummy without the leg and without the thousand dollar price tag. I paid $100 for one and I am waiting for it to come in from back order. What do you think of them?

[TTEscrima]

Good I think I am going to get back into Chi Sao with some of my students. Hey while I got your attention, what do you think of these attachmate wooden dummy contraptions that you fix on to a heavy bag? It's a wooden dummy without the leg and without the thousand dollar price tag. I paid $100 for one and I am waiting for it to come in from back order. What do you think of them?

They're better than nothing. Wall boards fall in the same category. Nothing beats a live opponent though. The dummy is essentially a protractor to train your angles, check into the rattan hoops at 14" and 16". The 14's teach trapping lines and the 16's teach vital point striking lines. They also condition the arms better than you might think. The rings are the poor man's dummy, plus you can get metal rings and actually use them for SD.

[Garth]

Can some one interested in Wing Chun but not a practioner per se, cross train in Chi Sao? Would that defeat the purpose?

Chi sao is not taught until after one learns the basics of Wing Chun. So someone who knows nothing else of WC can't learn chi sao, or if he tries he won't do it correctly and will therefore not get much out of it.

[Hardball]

Chi sao is not taught until after one learns the basics of Wing Chun. So someone who knows nothing else of WC can't learn chi sao, or if he tries he won't do it correctly and will therefore not get much out of it.

I had 9 months of Wing Chun two nights a week. I even got to meet GM William Chueng at a seminar. I appreciate you answer, it gives me something to think about.