REAL history of kung-fu

[pstevens]

TTTEscrima,

I realize now that you're either a kid or a troubled person. You couldn't possibly be an adult, because that would indicate behavior patterns typical of pyschosis including: hallucinations about your kung-fu theories, delusions about MMA people attacking you, and a thought disorder that prevents you from making constructive statements.

Therefore, please find help somewhere else as I'm not a certified psychologist. I failed to realize it before, but you've been using my threads as therapy in the form of baseless attacks.

Since I really am of no help to you, I'll agree to disagree with you. Again, please find help...

[TTEscrima]

TTTEscrima,

I realize now that you're either a kid or a troubled person. You couldn't possibly be an adult, because that would indicate behavior patterns typical of pyschosis including: hallucinations about your kung-fu theories, delusions about MMA people attacking you, and a thought disorder that prevents you from making constructive statements.

Therefore, please find help somewhere else as I'm not a certified psychologist. I failed to realize it before, but you've been using my threads as therapy in the form of baseless attacks.

Since I really am of no help to you, I'll agree to disagree with you. Again, please find help...

Yeah I thought so, you're another gutless loudmouth MMA fan who wants to spout BS about arts he doesn't practice but apparently fears since you spend your time starting threads attacking them, yet can't substantiate a single thing you've posted about them. Your assertions about Chi Sau not being used in fights or sparring were hysterical and your REAL history of KF according to Paul Stevens is a complete joke, you must be so proud. I'd bet anything you're another clown in his 20's teaching people based on your vast experience and knowledge. Apparently it's not enough to talk up your own arts you need to start threads and go hunting other threads to talk smack about the CMA's too, if you hate them so bad, leave the CMA forums, trust me we can survive just fine without your "contributions" and advice.

I still can't believe you pussed out so easily on defending your very own REAL history of KF thread, you got asked one question and took off like a dog caught in the garbage cans with your tail between your legs, priceless.

[jubaji]

TTExcrement makin' friends as always...

[Sagacious Lu]

TTEscrima, would you (or anyone else) post what you think are good links on the history of kung fu? I may not see eye to eye with you on everything but hopefully we can still discuss history.

[TigerClaw]

My understanding is that many kung-fu styles that are around today either inventions of the Chinese Government to entice tourists, off-shoots of original styles (without true knowledge of them), or integrated styles from other martial arts (karate, tkd, mt, etc)...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "heart" of kung-fu; which is shaolin was destroyed long ago and nothing survived.

You are wrong. From the Shaolin Temple different fighters escaped and we have some styles still with us today, such as Hung Gar, and praying mantis etc. Here is a bit of info about the apparent history,

"here are, however, some historical evidence and facts which sheds light to the origins and development of Hung Gar gungfu through time. Although the earlier history of Hung Gar is still not as clear as one would expect or want, there are on going efforts and research which may in the future clarify some of the historical contradictions and legends.

Most widely accepted version, regarding the origins of Hung Gar tells us that history of Hung Gar begins during the 17th century in southern China. Hung Gar is said to have its origins in the Southern Shaolin temple in Fukien Province of Southern China.

...the actual story of Hung Gar style begins with the Shaolin monk Gee Seen Sim See during a time of turmoil and strife when China was under the rule of Ch'ing dynasty (Manchu). The Manchurian conquest and rule( 1644-1911) of China was a deeply humiliating experience for the Chinese. The Manchus, indeed, made things harder for themselves, as foreign rulers, with their decree that Chinese men would have to adopt Manchu costumes (including the infamous "queue"). This provoked violent Chinese popular resistance and helped the "Southern Ming" princes rally forces against the Manchu's for almost two decades.

It is said that Gee Seen Sim See was a monk at the Northern Shaolin Temple. When the Ching troops burned down the Northern temple, the monk Gee Seen amongst others managed to escape.Gee Seen Sim See flea to the Fukien province of China where he is said to have eventually became the abbot of Southern Shaolin temple and trained many people in the art of shaolin gung fu, including non-budhist monks who were known as shaolin layman disciples. It is also said that Gee Seen supported the anti-ching movement and took part in the activities to overthrow the Manchu government

...it was during this time when a young patriot named Hung Hei Goon took refuge at the Southern Shaolin Temple to hide from the Manchu officials. Legend has it that Hung Hei Goon trained under Gee Seen Sim See and eventually became his top disciple. Hung Hei Goon is widely considered as the founder of Hung Gar.

Hung Hei Goon disliked the Ch'ing rule like many other Chinese and spent most of his life fighting to over throw the Ch'ing and restore the Ming. Hung's real surname was Jyu,however due to being one of the most wanted rebels of his time, he later changed his name to Hung to hide his real identity from the Ch'ing government. He chose the name Hung as a tribute to the first Ming Emperor Hung Mo(Hong Wu) who is widely considered as one of the best, if not the best emperor in the history of China.

The Ch'ing government well aware of what was happening at the Southern Shaolin temple, felt threatened by shaolin temple and its activities. They planed a full scale attack and send imperial troops to destroy the temple and kill all the monks and rebels. The monks were out numbered largely and did not stand a chance against the army, the Shaolin temple was burned down to the ground. Hung Hei Goon and Gee Sim, Luk Ah Choy as well as some others managed to survive the attack and fled to the southern parts of China. These man swore to spread the art of shaolin and fight to "overthrow the Chi'ng, restore the Ming".

At the time Gung fu training was banned by the Manchus. So Hung Hei Goon taught his art secretly at the Big Buddha Temple in Kwungtung, southern China. Once the ban was lifted, he began teaching openly and set up a school in Fa city of Kwungtung province. He named his art Hung Gar Kuen (Hung family Fist), mainly to hide its shaolin connections from the Manchus."

Quotes from, Hung Kuen Net - Online Hung Gar Kung Fu Resources

Here is another site, Hung Gar History

Like you admitted there are also many other Kung Fu styles that have been handed down from other masters for centuries, All Kung Fu does not come from the Shaolin Temple.

All that can be agreed to in PART, is that much of the Wu Shu we see today may not have as ancient tradition behind it. But traditional martial arts have long histories.

[TTEscrima]

TTEscrima, would you (or anyone else) post what you think are good links on the history of kung fu? I may not see eye to eye with you on everything but hopefully we can still discuss history.

China is a "fun" place to try to research. If you are old enough to remember the things that have happened and the footage that made it out and you check the official stories they vary greatly to say the least.

Someone somewhere will always dispute something no matter where/or what you're researching but the martial arts and China are both doozies...combined its tough. That said, the net SUCKS for finding good info, the people with it don't usually feel like putting it out to be stolen or ridiculed by those who think they know something. Just realize that although the peanut gallery is never too busy to ridicule the efforts of others they never actually have any actual useful input of their own.

I respect the time and energy Salvatore Canzonieri has put into the subject and he's my only suggestion for those stuck with the net, here's a pretty good article he wrote awhile back. This one post contains more info than some people have put into 9000 plus posts so you'll be busy awhile if you actually read and absorb.

Southern Wu Gong during the Qing dynasty - Southern Shaolin Global Kung Fu Discussion Board


Sal's done some impressive research over the years, people don't always like what he has to say, but he's done the work and can back it up.

[jubaji]

China is a "fun" place to try to research.

How much time have you spent there trying?

[Ben Grimm]

I can say I've been here in China for 3 years and it's still not enough time.

[jubaji]

I can say I've been here in China for 3 years and it's still not enough time.

I'm afraid your 3 years there in China won't be enough to compare to TTExcrement's power of cut and paste, and the books he can't read. You see, he has a teeny-tiny little brain and a fragile ego.

[Ben Grimm]

Yeah, cut and paste is a dangerous tool.

[TTEscrima]

I can say I've been here in China for 3 years and it's still not enough time.

Surely 3 years in country is time enough for you contribute something that would benefit the thread readers, after all people make such a big deal that they've been there. Seems to me some of the most influential and knowledgeable martial artists in the world today have never visited the land their arts originated from. So how has being there contributed to your learning curve about the CMA's usage? And why can't it be experienced elsewhere? Techniques don't work differently just because you learn them in a specific culture. So whats the big advantage? I've studied multiple arts in their country of origin including KM directly from the IDF in Israel but the only thing that really ever changed was the normal personal interpretation of the art (which you get when changing teachers within a style regardless of the country it originated in) or the native language of the teacher when I've studied these same arts taught in the USA.

[jubaji]

In other words, TTE has never been there and is highly insecure about it.

[Ben Grimm]

I found that training in China, at least with my Shifu, is that because of the cultural differences, I have to train and do things in a completely different manner.

[TTEscrima]

I found that training in China, at least with my Shifu, is that because of the cultural differences, I have to train and do things in a completely different manner.

Forms, drills, punches, kicks, locks etc are different because of culture?

Every time I've run across cultural BS it detracted from the functionality of the end product, ambiance is not a martial byproduct. What BENEFIT does traveling to a specific country to learn an art provide over learning it from a teacher who has never been to the country the art was born in? I've often encountered better training in a style outside the country of its origin and I'm sure I'm not alone in that observation, in fact I'd bet it's almost the norm.

[jubaji]

Forget it Ben, TTExcrement is now in full 'ego-protection mode' and will just keep providing 'attitude' in response to your actual experience.