Here’s a video that was supposed to promote WC over karate (although it’s really TKD). As you can see, no “sticky” hands applications, trapping or and he has trouble staying in the mid-RANGE where chi sau concepts would apply.
YouTube - Wing Chun vs Karate
As opposed to this:
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An answer to Chi Sao's usefulness
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Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostSo, you're NOW claiming when you said no one used Chi Sau on you during sparring, you didn't mean that actual Chi sau was supposed to be used, just the concepts/attributes from within it eh? Well, it seems you don't even understand the concepts well enough to explain what you claim you meant.:
Someone asked about the usefulness of chi sao. My original statement was:
“In all honestly, chi sao is just an exercise. The range in which is performed is very hard to maintain in actual combat. There's something to be gained, but I wouldn't make it a focal point of combat training.”
My argument is that chi sao conditions one to remain within a mid-range for an unrealistic amount of time. I didn’t say it was completely useless in regards to combat; YOU DID! Your exact words were: “ITS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN SPARRING OR COMBAT!!” Meaning it has no combat applications.
Either deal with it or don’t.
Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostSo you sparred with a WC guy who didn't use any strikes, blocks, trapping or sensitivity?
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Originally posted by pstevens View PostYou know very well what I meant. I was implying that the concepts within chi sao should be to be applied to live combat; just as combinations can be applied in boxing. Thus far, your attention to detail is incredible for a master of WC [sarcasm, again].
So you sparred with a WC guy who didn't use any strikes, blocks, trapping or sensitivity?
If you ever touched each other (created a reference point) during the sparring session, then attributes from energy sensing (Chi Sau) came into play (assuming the other person actually knew WC), the fact you are unable to recognize this doesn't reflect on WC, it reflects on you.
Since its abundantly clear Pstevens has never actually seen Chi Sau (he already admitted he had never experienced it).
Last edited by TTEscrima; 03-12-2009, 02:10 PM.
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Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostROFLMAO. Again you declare that since Chi Sau is used as an exercise it should be employed in the fight, or they should be about to use it, keep digging, I haven't laughed this hard in ages.:
Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostI'm telling you what any WC student with 1 week of class knows: Chi Sau is an exercise used to develop your tools and attributes, its an energy sensing drill...ITS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN SPARRING OR COMBAT!! ONE PERSON CANNOT "CHI SAU" another who is not also doing the drill because it requires mutual cooperation and both parties have to know the exercise.:
Please prove otherwise. You still haven’t argued my point.
Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostChi Sau is a drill that teaches you about the usage of the tools contained with WC, Tan Sau, Bong Sau, Pak Sau etc in a controlled environment. :
Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostYou can try to wiggle all you want, your posts made it clear you have little if any idea about WC or Chi Sau. You clearly stated no one tried to Chi sau you during sparring. Anyone who knows what Chi Sau is realizes just how uniformed and hysterical your statement is. :
1. Chi sao is supposed to develop attributes that can be used in combat.
2. However, chi sao drills one to maintain a range which is unrealistic in combat.
Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostYou're PREACHING (to use your own words) about a subject you have ZERO grasp of, so long as we're clear on that I don't need to supply a rebuttal.You made assessments and offered opinions on a subject you're clearly completely ignorant of. :
Yes, I made a opinion based on my experiences with chi sao in another thread; and as you can see, my statement was used to begin this topic; so of course I was obligated to reply. This is a forum for debate, no?
Thus far, you haven’t enlightened anyone either… Your rebuttals are not needed, as everyone can see, they don’t exist and would serve no purpose.
Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostIt never ceases to amaze me the amount of time the MMA crowd dedicates to preaching about styles that they've never spent an hour in a class learning about before offering their opinion on how to fix them.:
Originally posted by TTEscrima View PostI thought your "Real History of the CMA's" thread was the best example of preaching about a subject you don't have a clue about until I saw this thread.
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Originally posted by pstevens View PostWell, shouldn’t they be about to push hands or chi sao? In boxing, you throw combinations all day, so you’d better know how to do in sparring.
Dang, now that I think of it, I've never bench pressed anyone in a fight or sparring, guess I better drop that from the training, never done a superman while sparring or fighting, wow, I've never squatted anyone either!! I never realized how many useless exercises there were!! OK folks listen up!! If it isn't used in sparring it serves no purpose according to Pstevens so knock it off, he doesn't approve!!
Originally posted by pstevens View PostBasically, you’re telling me that push-hands and chi sao are nothing more than drills that serve no other purpose.
Originally posted by pstevens View PostThey’re supposed to develop sensitivity, technique and correct movement that CAN BE applied to actual sparring. If not, please explain their purpose…
Originally posted by pstevens View PostYet, again we go back to the same idea I’ve been preaching (except this time, let me clarify); the RANGE in which chi sao drills/teaches/conceptualizes is VERY hard to maintain in actual combat. There’s my position, supply a rebuttal if you will.
You can try to wiggle all you want, your posts made it clear you have little if any idea about WC or Chi Sau. You clearly stated no one tried to Chi sau you during sparring. Anyone who knows what Chi Sau is realizes just how uniformed and hysterical your statement is.
You're PREACHING (to use your own words) about a subject you have ZERO grasp of, so long as we're clear on that I don't need to supply a rebuttal.You made assessments and offered opinions on a subject you're clearly completely ignorant of.
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of time the MMA crowd dedicates to preaching about styles that they've never spent an hour in a class learning about before offering their opinion on how to fix them.
I thought your "Real History of the CMA's" thread was the best example of preaching about a subject you don't have a clue about until I saw this thread.Last edited by TTEscrima; 03-12-2009, 01:43 PM.
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Originally posted by TTEscrima View Post:Chi Sau is an exercise/drill...you don't "Try to get in RANGE and chi sau them."
“In all honestly, chi sao is just an exercise. The range in which is performed is very hard to maintain in actual combat. There's something to be gained, but I wouldn't make it a focal point of combat training.”
In fact, I did say it was an “exercise.”
Originally posted by TTEscrima View Post:The reason no one tried to Chi Sau you during sparring is its a two person DRILL, it's not intended for sparring. ..
Originally posted by TTEscrima View Post:Perhaps you ought to stop writing all these posts informing people about the CMA's because all you're doing is showing you don't have enough knowledge of the subject to even participate in a discussion much less educate others on the subject...
But since you’re obviously an expert on the subject, why don’t you supply the rebuttal to my posts. I could use a good debate every now and then.
Originally posted by TTEscrima View Post:Want to know whats wrong with the CMA's? People without any idea what they're talking about spreading what little knowledge they presume to posses like its gospel..
Originally posted by TTEscrima View Post:Geesh those darn Tai chi guys never push hands with their opponent when they're sparring or fighting either, whats up with those people, don't they know you have to push hands and Chi sau the boxers/ MMA guys!!Thank goodness someone came along from MMA to explain what we're all doing wrong.
Basically, you’re telling me that push-hands and chi sao are nothing more than drills that serve no other purpose. I beg to differ. They’re supposed to develop sensitivity, technique and correct movement that CAN BE applied to actual sparring. If not, please explain their purpose…
Yet, again we go back to the same idea I’ve been preaching (except this time, let me clarify); the RANGE in which chi sao drills/teaches/conceptualizes is VERY hard to maintain in actual combat. There’s my position, supply a rebuttal if you will.
Have a nice day.
Paul
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Originally posted by pstevens View PostTry to get in RANGE and chi sau them.
Originally posted by pstevens View PostTrue. I don’t do wing chun, but have come across it many times. I’ve met people who train WC and discussed, trained and sparred with them. Not one of them have ever used chi sau during sparring. Perhaps it was an isolated incident or the opportunity didn’t present itself…
Originally posted by pstevens View PostI don’t know.
Chi Sau is an exercise/drill...you don't "Try to get in RANGE and chi sau them."
The reason no one tried to Chi Sau you during sparring is its a two person DRILL, it's not intended for sparring. Perhaps you ought to stop writing all these posts informing people about the CMA's because all you're doing is showing you don't have enough knowledge of the subject to even participate in a discussion much less educate others on the subject. Want to know whats wrong with the CMA's? People without any idea what they're talking about spreading what little knowledge they presume to posses like its gospel.
Geesh those darn Tai chi guys never push hands with their opponent when they're sparring or fighting either, whats up with those people, don't they know you have to push hands and Chi sau the boxers/ MMA guys!!Thank goodness someone came along from MMA to explain what we're all doing wrong.
Last edited by TTEscrima; 03-12-2009, 03:51 AM.
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Originally posted by benneil View Postchi sau makes any type of "blocking" more effective because of your sensitivity. once you make contact it allows you to know what they are going to do better than sight alone.
1. Closed the gap and controlled your opponent; the clinch.
2. Slipped inside/outside to throw combinations.
Otherwise, if you’re sitting in that range for too long, you’re going to eat punches.
Originally posted by benneil View Postpart of a fighters speed is reaction time and chi sau sensitivity allows you to react quicker to whatever they are doing whether it be trying to grapple or strike.
Your reaction speed increases as your opponent’s range increases. That’s because you have more time, considering he’s got more distance to cover. Within chi sau range, this is very difficult, but not impossible for short periods. Still the risks are greater than the rewards.
Originally posted by benneil View Postits ok you probably never learned any wing chun
What I do like about WC exists in its theory; specifically ideas about the center line. In defense, I like to parry my opponent’s attack away from the centerline and counter. The idea of a center line allows me to adjust to my opponent’s attacks through good positioning.
Anyway, I hope more people can contribute to this discussion based on their knowledge and experience.
Paul
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im not proving anything. i wanted to discuss this.
but regarding what you said
Imagine yourself in close proximity with someone who has good hands. You're trying to trap, parry or counter while they're throwing hooks, uppercuts and straight rights.
part of a fighters speed is reaction time and chi sau sensitivity allows you to react quicker to whatever they are doing whether it be trying to grapple or strike.
its ok you probably never learned any wing chun
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So you're using a WC article to prove the usefullness of Chi Sau? Defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
Anyway, you've taken my quote out of context. So let me explain: What I was implying was that the range in which you apply chi sau is hard to maintain (control, defend, counter, etc). This is because Chi Sau actually occurs at mid-range; yet not clinching, but close enough to get hit. That's why I believe it's more manageable to be very close or out of range.
That WCers can demonstrate the usefullness of chi sau says very little. Can chi sau work against a boxer, wrestler, BJJer, MMAist, etc?... Imagine yourself in close proximity with someone who has good hands. You're trying to trap, parry or counter while they're throwing hooks, uppercuts and straight rights. From my experience, you're more likely to get KTFO! The range in which this happens makes it almost impossible to react to combinations. You might want to stick hands, but the other guy's throwing combos or going for a takedown. You be the judge.
This is not to say that Chi Sau is completely useless. One SHOULD train for all ranges of combat. But it's common knowledge that within mid-range, offense almost always defeats defense and you can't stay there all day playing patti-cake. You're either there by default, or you've taken advantage of your opponent's mistake (slipped a punch).
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An answer to Chi Sao's usefulness
Originally posted by pstevens View PostThe range in which is performed is very hard to maintain in actual combat.
Thought it would be interesting to start a new discussio (that other thread is very long now and veered off topic)
Wing Chun 3 Ranges Part II
3 Ranges of Our Wing Chun Part II
By John Paul
Short range is the range that is most associated with Wing Chun, even with those who are only remotely familiar with the style. This close range infighting is very advanced and can only be properly learned, practiced, and understood after the longer range concepts are fully grasped. This distance is also commonly known as trapping range. In Wing Chun we practice sticky hands, or chi sau for this.
The way my teacher taught me sticky hands is totally different from the other Wing Chun families that I have seen in person and on the internet.
First, the preliminary training for long range and mid range techniques teaches students in our family to close the gap, move in and "stick" to our opponent. Easier said than done. We spend a great deal of time perfecting our mobility, foot work, not wasting movements, stamina, speed, timing and agility.
This is the forward energy often mentioned in Wing Chun but hardly understood. Students in our family "bug the opponent like a bee or a fly or a hummingbird". Starting from a distance, as most confrontations do, and then ending up "too close for comfort to the opponent".
Every technique we use, every weapon we use, and every principle we follow carries this spirit. The close range principle is easily understood by soft style practitioners, but it seems to be mysterious to some Wing Chun artists. I will adress this later because it is very fundamental.
Once after sparring 3 or 4 people in a row, Sifu asked me, "Now, what do you think you can do better next time?" I thought for a second. Then I said,"Workout harder!", because I was completely out of breath. He said, "Hmm...no that's not it...once you get in, you don't know what to do!" At this point I am familiar with the long and medium ranges but the short range I have yet to master. We differ from other families of Wing Chun because we spend so much effort to close in, bypass the weapon and trap it that it puts our mind in a different place for applying finishing techniques. I don't see other families practice this. Im not speculating about their training per se, I mean that watching them fight they lose all other Wing Chun principles because they don't have this one.
My teacher says sticky hands is a fragmented part of Wing Chun training. There is more to Wing Chun than just that. As a result, Wing Chun has gotten a bad reputation for only looking good but with no practicality. That's why people try to mix it with Muay Thai or some other hard style of boxing when it comes to real fight training.
Totally incorrect.
Everyone who practices martial arts, has had a few fights, or is fairly intelligent when they start martial arts always gets the idea to take the best stuff from every style and create their own personal superstyle. In fact this is how martial arts evolves. But most people are not qualified to do this for one reason. In order to get the best from every style you practice requires years of training. But most people study only short while, or even worse they study for years but never fully grasp the principles and never master the style. So when they take from the style they only end up taking a few moves or techniques; never carrying with them the spirit, the essence of the style.
They dont get "the best stuff".
In our family one of our founders, Fung Siu Ching, incorporated Tai Chi grappling into our Wing Chun. Many people practice some form of Tai Chi and some form of Wing Chun and try to mix the two. So what makes ours different?
Well, Master Fung was well known to be a very experienced general, marshall and bounty hunter for the Qing. He had real hand to hand combat skill for most of his life. He knew Tai Chi grappling probably better than he knew his wife. It was in him, it was a part of him. A soft, internal style principle that is our Kung Fu is internal--its in your soul, your DNA. Many readers frown on the Wing Chun and Tai Chi relationship, and confuse us with some of the masters who add Tai Chi technigues into their Wing Chun techniques like adding apples and oranges together.
Some swear that Fung had studied Shaolin Crane Style (Shaolin practitioners have said this). Most of them have never heard that Ng Mui was from Aumei White Crane Cave (stated by the Master of White Eye Brow in a book called "Bak Mei Pi" and Master Sum Nung). The Aumei Pi style of Kung Fu is actually a family of many mixed styles of Shaolin and Wudong, by many masters of the two, over hundreds of years! It became a new fruit! Back to my point.
Closing the gap in our Wing Chun is similar to Xing Yi and Tai Chi principles. In both styles the master gets close. In Xing Yi they close in. In Tai Chi they allow the opponent to close in. We do similarly but still different. We move forward in a yielding manner. Once in close, short range, trapping range, the most deadly, powerful, accurate finishing blows are executed. In this range we also differ from other Wing Chun families because we emphasize much more stand up grappling, White Crane sweeping and throwing, take downs, and breaks.Tags: None
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