An answer to Chi Sao's usefulness

[sdafsdfasfas]

Created account just to settle this debate with a nifty video from the future of youtuber Master Wong teaching "how to use Chi Sao in Street Fight".

Basically it's a subconscious application of the concepts and of course doesn't mean you'll go into a fight with your arms extended out or that you'll stay square in front of them the entire fight. Watch the video!

[benneil]

Exactly, chi sau assumes you have contact with your arms. In fact, chi sau begins with arms touching, correct? But this isn’t the problem. The problem as I’ve said is RANGE. Within chi sau range, you are at a great… let me repeat, great disadvantage unless you’ve done one of two things:

1. Closed the gap and controlled your opponent; the clinch.
2. Slipped inside/outside to throw combinations.

you made some good points. i think thats the whole point of the article...the need to train the ability to come in from a long range and get to a position where you closed the gap and have controlled them.

this is soemthing that most schools (in the writers opinion and mine too) do not train. they train a lot of chi sau with the arms already touching so from that alone students cannot apply it in live situations

[Ben Grimm]

Man, that's harsh! Chi Sau teaches sensitivity and the use of the 3 tools as mentioned above. So as soon as my arm makes contact with yours that is Chi Sau. For example if you throw a straight punch and I deflect it using Tan Sau and then change to Laap Sau using the same hand that is a very basic form of trapping a single hand. I could go into many examples, but I won't. But that is Chi Sau, not just the exercise you see, but the sensitivity that comes along with the training.

[TTEscrima]

Find help fast... I left a message for you on the other thread.

Run Forrest RUN. You might be the only person on the board who knows less about KF than Tigerclaw, now run before you're made to look like an even bigger fool.

[pstevens]

Find help fast... I left a message for you on the other thread.

[TTEscrima]

Well, it's also quite evident you don't know a damn thing about MMA or WC for that matter; since you haven't been able to dispute anything I've said.

Uh yeah, thats it. You made idiotic statements about Chi sau not being used during sparring when you supposedly sparred with WC people and you want to claim I'm the one wasting bandwidth and time of the readers. Multiple people explained it but it's still too complicated for you to grasp.

Here you go again with more false assumptions. I really hope you're not an adult, because your childish antics are really apparent. Anyone who reads this entire wasted thread will see that I've tried to justify my argument while you pretended to be a kung-fu expert.

ROFLMAO that's weak. YOU are the one in the thread blathering about a subject you don't know squat about and YOU started a thread titled the REAL history of Kung Fu, sounds to me like you're the one running around acting like the KF expert when you don't know a damn thing about it.

Either way, you need to grow up and I need to get out of this pointless debate.

Yes, yes run away like you were in the right all along.

[pstevens]

He's working from multiple flawed premises, brought on by the fact he doesn't know a damn thing about WC training except he's certain what they do it all wrong.:

Well, it's also quite evident you don't know a damn thing about MMA or WC for that matter; since you haven't been able to dispute anything I've said.

It's simple really, it isn't MMA therefore it's wrong.

Here you go again with more false assumptions. I really hope you're not an adult, because your childish antics are really apparent. Anyone who reads this entire wasted thread will see that I've tried to justify my argument while you pretended to be a kung-fu expert.

Either way, you need to grow up and I need to get out of this pointless debate.

[TTEscrima]

You're working from the premise that WC is only chi sau. Chi sau is only an exercise to develop attributes used in WC. It's only a small part of the whole system.

He's working from multiple flawed premises, brought on by the fact he doesn't know a damn thing about WC training except he's certain what they do it all wrong. It's simple really, it isn't MMA therefore it's wrong.

[mellow]

Good boy, at least you understand the principle now. Royler was limited to his one range; just as chi sau is limited to its range. Both are a recipe for disaster.

You're working from the premise that WC is only chi sau. Chi sau is only an exercise to develop attributes used in WC. It's only a small part of the whole system.

[pstevens]

…chi Sau is about sensing and countering attacks at a specific range.:

Exactly. And I’m telling you this RANGE isn’t a great idea to remain in too long. Hence, I don’t believe training chi sau is as useful as it can be; THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD…

…In BJJ both partners start out on the ground or on their knees where NO fights begin. I don't see you whining about that and declaring it doesn't work that way in sparring or fighting..:

Then why don’t you start a new thread critiquing the inadequacies of BJJ? Actually, there is one and you can easily add to it.

Either way, I don’t see how this is relevant at all. We’re not talking about BJJ are we? Furthermore, I’ve never stated that BJJ had every answer… I know BJJ has bad training habits that wouldn’t apply to real combat situations. I can admit that…

…Ever watched Royler butt scoot around on the mat instead of getting up to fight Sak? He butt scooted over 50% of the fight... guess he was practicing what he preached eh?.:

Yeah, and your point as it relates to the usefulness of chi sau is?

…Apparently his training emphasizing one range limited his ability to actually put an opponent on the ground and required him to lay there begging Sak to come down.:

Good boy, at least you understand the principle now. Royler was limited to his one range; just as chi sau is limited to its range. Both are a recipe for disaster.

…SOME people are bright enough to grasp a tool has certain uses, some people are just tools.

Unfortunately, tools like yourself can only find fault in others.

[TTEscrima]

Can you elaborate on this a bit? I think this will throw alot of people off.

Since there are three types of techniques (striking, chin-na, unrooting) and eight palms within each posture the number of applications and possibilities is virtually limitless, Once you begin to examine all the possible applications of the forms it becomes quite obvious that something is needed to tie these many techniques together and guide the practitioner through their usage.

Because fights happen in split seconds there would be no way to think your way through the many possible combinations to deal with your attacker and this is where Chi Sap (energy sensing) drills come in. These drills teach the common applications of the forms by doing them with a partner. As progress is made mechanical reactions begin to occur in response to stimuli that the central nervous system recognizes. These mechanical reactions later turn into reflex actions as the body learns to sense and respond to attacking power by reflex making use of the techniques in the form.

The Chi Sap drills teach the usage of striking, chin-na and unrooting techniques by feel, much like a hand pulling away from a hot iron without the brain telling it to. The techniques are executed without the eyes seeing the incoming strike and trying to tell the brain about it which then decides which technique to respond with.

By the time all that went on the fight would be over, instead just like catching a ball thrown to you without calculating the speed and angle you simply catch it. It is the same thing that you learn to do when an opponent attempts to strike you the technique simply shoots out and intercepts the incoming strike just like catching the ball.

In simple terms, after making contact with the opponents limbs you can feel your opponents power and this allows you to respond quicker. As one hand hits it naturally reacts as the next strike begins to manifest, with experience you can not only sense that a strike is coming you can tell what type of punch, kick etc is manifesting by the way the opponents body moves (feels).

[mellow]

The skill of skin listening is then applied during a fight

Can you elaborate on this a bit? I think this will throw alot of people off.

[TTEscrima]

I made this point very clear! I said chi sau is an "exercise." However, it teaches an unrealistic approach to RANGE. Please prove otherwise.

Let me see if I can explain this in a way you can comprehend, Chi Sau is trained at contact range because the exercise is intended to teach you to sense the opponents movements through contact with his limbs, you can't train it without contact so the drill has to be run at that range. Are there other ranges of combat? Sure but chi sau isn't applicable to them, chi Sau is about sensing and countering attacks at a specific range. The skill of skin listening is then applied during a fight to trap/deflect the opponents strike and opening the path for your strike, it's similar to how grapplers develop body feel that is then used to control position on the ground.

In BJJ both partners start out on the ground or on their knees where NO fights begin. I don't see you whining about that and declaring it doesn't work that way in sparring or fighting. Ever watched Royler butt scoot around on the mat instead of getting up to fight Sak? He butt scooted over 50% of the fight... guess he was practicing what he preached eh? Apparently his training emphasizing one range limited his ability to actually put an opponent on the ground and required him to lay there begging Sak to come down. SOME people are bright enough to grasp a tool has certain uses, some people are just tools.

[pstevens]

Wrong again. As anyone with any actual training understands Forms, drills, exercises etc develop skill sets and attributes to be used in combat, but you NEVER use the actual drill, form or exercise itself in combat. Yet you declare Chi Sau wasn't used on you in sparring as some sort of black mark against WC, when in fact it just shows your ignorance of the subject..

I made this point very clear! I said chi sau is an "exercise." However, it teaches an unrealistic approach to RANGE. Please prove otherwise.

So now you're claiming your whole point was trapping doesn't work outside the WC school?.

I never said otherwise. Please show where I stated that I wanted WC to work against WC... That would defeat the purpose wouldn't it? Please see my original argument and supply a rebuttal. Your lack of comprehension amazes me for someone who claims to be a kung-fu expert. Again, my problem is the amount of time spent in chi sau RANGE, not trapping, not striking, etc...

I believe even XF has commented on his own use of several WC trapping techniques in sparring.

Well, then you could have mentioned this in a constructive manner and I would either accepted it or inquired further. Yet, you resorted to personal attacks and taking my arguments out of context. Either way, suit yourself. I hope your kung-fu is better than your debate skills.

The model of this debate:

My argument: From what I've seen, Chi sau trains within a range that is compromising. However, it's useful to train in all ranges.

Your defense: You don't know chi sau; chi sau is just an exercise. you can't use it to fight. You don't know kung-fu; MMA people are ignorant regarding kung-fu, so please don't try to help us.

[TTEscrima]

My argument is that chi sao conditions one to remain within a mid-range for an unrealistic amount of time. I didn’t say it was completely useless in regards to combat; YOU DID! Your exact words were: “ITS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN SPARRING OR COMBAT!!” Meaning it has no combat applications.

Wrong again. As anyone with any actual training understands Forms, drills, exercises etc develop skill sets and attributes to be used in combat, but you NEVER use the actual drill, form or exercise itself in combat. Yet you declare Chi Sau wasn't used on you in sparring as some sort of black mark against WC, when in fact it just shows your ignorance of the subject.

Exactly. I didn’t see any trapping, sensitivity to my attacks… As a matter of fact, I haven’t seen any of this stuff work outside of a WC gym. Please show or correct me if I’m wrong. I’d be willing retract my statement if you can show me a WC guy executing chi sau maneuvers/techniques/concepts while in-fighting against someone not WC.

So now you're claiming your whole point was trapping doesn't work outside the WC school?

I believe even XF has commented on his own use of several WC trapping techniques in sparring.