Sriking take down

[Junka]

See, I don't think that is a high percentage alternative to sprawling because when you are sprawling you are doing so because he is pursuing your center, not just pushing on one side of you.

I never saw it used but it was being talked about by a cop from the point of view of weapons retention. The same cop did practice BJJ and understood wrestling, I'll see if I can find the article. Obviously he needed an alternative that involved being able to maintain control of his side arm and allow him to create distance from the opponent and draw down on him.

[jubaji]

No but you are simplifying a dynamic situation with body mechanics involved.

Yes, I'm trying to because some folks just don't seem to understand what I'm saying, and some (not you) are actively trying not to.



Let me say again: NOTHING works all the time and for everyone and every situation, but the technique in the vid that started this thread 'strikes' me as pretty low percentage. I don't think that's such a shocking or threatening thing to say.

[kingoftheforest]

No but you are simplifying a dynamic situation with body mechanics involved.

Look it's another take down at the end of the day. You may not like it or want to use it and you don't have to extol it's virtues. There's people reading the thread that will try it, others won't. It is the CMA forum after all and there's no lack of internet resources aimed at MMA and BJJ so I think it's good to see the other side.
I'm not saying I'd practice over a double leg (which can also be countered) but I'd give it a go and see if I liked it.

Another wonderful point.

[Junka]

Place a pencil on a table and 'hit' (if that word makes you happier) one end of it. What happens to the other end? I didn't make up physics, honest.

No but you are simplifying a dynamic situation with body mechanics involved.

Look it's another take down at the end of the day. You may not like it or want to use it and you don't have to extol it's virtues. There's people reading the thread that will try it, others won't. It is the CMA forum after all and there's no lack of internet resources aimed at MMA and BJJ so I think it's good to see the other side.
I'm not saying I'd practice over a double leg (which can also be countered) but I'd give it a go and see if I liked it.

[jubaji]

The problem we keep coming back to is your lack of experience with grappling. It may be that you are just not equipped to understand what I'm saying. That's not your fault.

[kingoftheforest]

Try that standing the pencil up while it has three different section to it.

One solid object lying down does not form a fair representation of the mechanics of the human body standing up.

Try using a straw like the one's you've been grasping at.

While you're at it learn the difference between a "hit" and a "push".

[jubaji]

Also you are hitting with an inward down ward motion not shoving the guys hip to one side.

Don't confuse it for a push it is a strike, hence striking take down.

Not pushing someone over.

Place a pencil on a table and 'hit' (if that word makes you happier) one end of it. What happens to the other end? I didn't make up physics, honest.

[jubaji]

I love the cardboard cutout comment. Because if somebody is moving in and striking you then their hands are NOT going to be at their sides where you can just "grab the wrist".

Their hands won't be "right there" you will be under their arms inside. So you would have to reach up above and behind your head to grab any part of the arm.

........................vid: 0:28

[jubaji]

I take your point. It does depend on the double leg though as there are varieties I've seen which move out to the side.

That moving out to the side is more an issue of how you try to finish the double based on how he is trying to defend and how well you actually made the initial penetration.

[jubaji]

I take your point. It does depend on the double leg though as there are varieties I've seen which move out to the side. The explanation for this that I've seen is to avoid being in the other guys guard after the move is completed but.....so many variations to so many things.


I can't really picture it but if I'm reading you right then it's be the same movement that's an alternative to sprawling, like turning out at 45 degrees. I've never actually seen it only read about it and it's hard to get a handle on things simply by reading text, for me it is anyway.

See, I don't think that is a high percentage alternative to sprawling because when you are sprawling you are doing so because he is pursuing your center, not just pushing on one side of you.

[kingoftheforest]

I love the cardboard cutout comment. Because if somebody is moving in and striking you then their hands are NOT going to be at their sides where you can just "grab the wrist".

Their hands won't be "right there" you will be under their arms inside. So you would have to reach up above and behind your head to grab any part of the arm.

Who punches with one arm hanging at their side?

Also you are hitting with an inward down ward motion not shoving the guys hip to one side.

Don't confuse it for a push it is a strike, hence striking take down.

Not pushing someone over.

Now if your opponent stands their in front of you like a cardboard cut out, then yes you could grab their wrist, but I have yet to see an attack come at anyone with his arms or just one arm hanging limp at his side.

[Junka]

If you are shooting a double you are putting your center more or less square into his and controlling both legs. Not the same as what we see in the vid at all.

I take your point. It does depend on the double leg though as there are varieties I've seen which move out to the side. The explanation for this that I've seen is to avoid being in the other guys guard after the move is completed but.....so many variations to so many things.

I think you are making it more complicated than it is. It's not 1..2..3, the momentum of him moving into you is the same that moves you into him.

I can't really picture it but if I'm reading you right then it's be the same movement that's an alternative to sprawling, like turning out at 45 degrees. I've never actually seen it only read about it and it's hard to get a handle on things simply by reading text, for me it is anyway.

[jubaji]

So he's on your foot and driving forwards. In this short time you're going to step around him, reach down and grab his wrist......? And you thought standing on someones foot may be tricky.

I think you are making it more complicated than it is. It's not 1..2..3, the momentum of him moving into you is the same that moves you into him. What happens when you push on one half of something? The other half moves too, doesn't it? From the vid you can see that he turns his body as he steps in, well, if you also turn yours (in the exact direction that he is pushing you anyway) you are just about there. And you don't have to "reach down" to "grab" his wrist because it is right there at the end of the motion shown in the vid. You don't have to grab it at all in the initial reaction. You can simply move your arm over his as you move into his body (notice BOTH of your arms are completely free) and take the wrist in a second motion.

Is what I'm describing guaranteed to work for you all the time? Of course not. As I've said, categorical statements (like "anyone will go down") are never reliable in regards to such things. Is the technique shown in the vid a low percentage move? I believe it is. Someone with body awareness and a level of athleticism is not necessarily going to fall down like a cardboard cutout anytime you touch them. I knew some folks whose ego is much, much greater than their sense or their experience would be offended if I dared to say anything other than "Gosh, that's brilliant! You're so great!" but that's just too damn bad for them.

Even if you're shooting in for double leg and in the scuffling that unfolds there is a possibility you'll simply land on the guys foot and I see a fair chance of him loosing his balance anyway as you're driving forwards.

If you are shooting a double you are putting your center more or less square into his and controlling both legs. Not the same as what we see in the vid at all.

[kingoftheforest]

So he's on your foot and driving forwards. In this short time you're going to step around him, reach down and grab his wrist......? And you thought standing on someones foot may be tricky.

This is basically the 'what if game' that gets played when a technique gets shown slowly for demonstration purposes. I've seen people play the 'what if' game with BJJ instructors too, as I'm sure have you.

Even if you're shooting in for double leg and in the scuffling that unfolds there is a possibility you'll simply land on the guys foot and I see a fair chance of him loosing his balance anyway as you're driving forwards.

Basically you can sit and pull any technique to bits. There is pretty much always a defense and nothing is flawless.

Thats a great point!

[Junka]

Don't move your right foot at all. Step forward with your left. You won't be exactly behind him but you will be around the corner and in a position to control him, particularly if you take that wrist (I would suggest a cross wrist). As long as you can't move your foot he can't move his, and you only need to get past that near shoulder to get into a control position. The fact that you BOTH have your foot immobile works out well as your step with the left will bring your hips close to his center of gravity as you take control of the advantageous position (provided you have the balance and quickness to do so).

So he's on your foot and driving forwards. In this short time you're going to step around him, reach down and grab his wrist......? And you thought standing on someones foot may be tricky.

This is basically the 'what if game' that gets played when a technique gets shown slowly for demonstration purposes. I've seen people play the 'what if' game with BJJ instructors too, as I'm sure have you.

Even if you're shooting in for double leg and in the scuffling that unfolds there is a possibility you'll simply land on the guys foot and I see a fair chance of him loosing his balance anyway as you're driving forwards.

Basically you can sit and pull any technique to bits. There is pretty much always a defense and nothing is flawless.