Technique discussions, pictures and video etc.

[JadeDragon]

I'll point out that meeting with someone to cross hands actually accomplishes a lot, as long as both people are reasonable about it. It doesn't need to be a full on fight, a good sparring session/ workout is enough to give both people a good idea of the other's skill. It's not about proving who's better or beating the crap out of the other guy, it just shows that you have the basic honesty (and skills that you claim you have) to show up and work out in good faith with another martial artist. Anyone who trains seriously should be happy to work out with someone that's either better than them- that's how you learn. Even if you get dominated it shows that you have the skills that you claim to. If TC had that attitude he could easily put a lot of questions to rest by meeting with one of the people who made the offer and having a friendly sparring match.

This is all true but who really feels like traveling a long distance to prove or see someone's skills knowing that they are still going to be ridiculed and called a lyer afterwards? And then there is a chance the person isn't going to show up. Wouldn't that suck to drive 6 hours and then the person not show up or lied about where they lived.....going to Georgia when in fact the person lives in Tennessee or something like that. That would suck.

[Sagacious Lu]

I'll point out that meeting with someone to cross hands actually accomplishes a lot, as long as both people are reasonable about it. It doesn't need to be a full on fight, a good sparring session/ workout is enough to give both people a good idea of the other's skill. It's not about proving who's better or beating the crap out of the other guy, it just shows that you have the basic honesty (and skills that you claim you have) to show up and work out in good faith with another martial artist. Anyone who trains seriously should be happy to work out with someone that's either better than them- that's how you learn. Even if you get dominated it shows that you have the skills that you claim to. If TC had that attitude he could easily put a lot of questions to rest by meeting with one of the people who made the offer and having a friendly sparring match.

[DaleDugas]

who was that directed at?

You the one who tells people to rape kids

[DaleDugas]

You cross train because you don't find all the answers in Kung Fu for you. I don't practice just one style of Kung Fu, I have many, I also have learned from other styles and BJJ etc. But I find that Kung Fu has a lifetime of knowledge and investigation for many defenses and attacks etc.

But that doesn't mean that I can't or wont learn from al sources.

I am willing to learn from others pictures of escapes and techniques in here. That is what I am interested in.

And you keep going on and on and on.

you admit to learning from photos that are dead and show no flow.

Some kung fu teacher you are.

[DaleDugas]

His escape seems similar to one that i have been taught and how i sort of escape a RNC from the ground. Ill try and give you a picture of how i escape, which has worked well for me in the past.

When they lock it on, first thing i do is roll so that their elbow is touching the matt.
Next i try and turn my neck and get my chin in the little gap that is always at the elbow. I say always because that is what i have been taught. Need to weasel your chin in their a bit and it basically stops you from chocking out but your head does get squeezed and that can hurt a bit.
After that i do what i can to get more room by sliding my head down further and further, using my hands to pull the arm down a bit and break the lock.
Basically your using the human bodies make up to get out of it and then probably me just being a bit panicy and trying to do whatever i can to get my head out of the lock.

I should also mention that there have been times where i have started to get a bit of tunnel vision with this lock escape. I am yet to be choked out, but then i havent had a MMA bout yet.

That is probably a bjj way of getting out, i dont know what grappling style i learn, i believe it is bjj. Have to disagree with TC, if they have the lock on properly, using all their strength i cant see how you have the strength to break their arms free. I will try your lock with my brother who trains with me.

Arent we all proud of where we come from? in some way we all show some arrogance that our training is far better then anyone elses. I believe that to be human. Is mine any better then TC's or Ben or Arieson? I dont know but i hope to god it is.
A fight only proves who was better on the day. 3 fights only proves who the better fighter is. What does the fight actually prove? doesnt prove who the better person is, who the more manly person is, better father, son, brother, etc... do you see where i am going with that?

So far i have seen one reasonable response to TC's technique, the rest have just continued their rant at arguing with him. Have you not learned he isnt going to change? give up and go suck mummies tit or rape ethiopian children whilst eating vaginal discharge. I would like to have a discussion on technique for my own information, dont want to read about you clowns and your "TC fight me" "you are a liar because i say so" FFS keep it on topic. Lets have a discussion otherwise this forum will eventually die, because people will loose interest and become tired about your homosexual rants about wanting to mount bruce.

That you tell people to rape children is disgusting.

You are a sick person and should be banned not only for that remark but for supporting frauds like Bruce.

[bunnyfufuman]

You cross train because you don't find all the answers in Kung Fu for you. I don't practice just one style of Kung Fu, I have many, I also have learned from other styles and BJJ etc. But I find that Kung Fu has a lifetime of knowledge and investigation for many defenses and attacks etc.

But that doesn't mean that I can't or wont learn from al sources.

I am willing to learn from others pictures of escapes and techniques in here. That is what I am interested in.

If this is true then why haven't you learned that this is a low percentage escape?

[bunnyfufuman]

What??

Its all about proper leverage and body positioning. Also you don't just rely on the push upward of the one hand or the pulling upward and forward of the other hand. The duck and tuck of the head is very important. At the same time as you pull the hand behind the head up and forward and push the elbow up hard with extreme force you duck and tuck the head out as you twisted your stance to the side and crouched.

I have done this many times and against a strong lock.

But was it a RNC?

[Uncle Skippy]

I have already addressed this escape as completely as need be in my very first post to this thread.
This escape is LOW PERCENTAGE. It does not work reliably against a moderately skilled opponent or an opponent who has a strength advantage. It should be reserved for a point at which every other escape has failed and you have no other options. If you rely on this escape as your primary escape from an RNC you will be put to sleep 99 times out of 100. Possibly more.

As you have described it, yes, it could work. It is not reliable and depends on early retention. It requires a working knowledge of the RNC and its setups. That requires hours and hours of mat time with experienced people applying the RNC.

As TigerClaw has described it, no, it would not work. He has not practiced it on someone with a working knowledge of the RNC. He doesn't have the mat time and is making gross assumptions about the opponent.

In the end, TigerClaw just doesn't know what he is doing.

I do wish he would have read and thoughtfully replied to your initial post. I could have done some more pushups in the time I've spent posting here :-)

[Kintanon]

The issue with that is that proper escapes from the RNC aren't so much individual techniques as they are defending the steps that the attacker needs to achieve to RNC you.
Just refer to my very first post in this thread for my personal escape method for the RNC. I very very very very very rarely get RNCed any more because I follow that escape methodology.

[JadeDragon]

You cross train because you don't find all the answers in Kung Fu for you. I don't practice just one style of Kung Fu, I have many, I also have learned from other styles and BJJ, etc.... But I find that Kung Fu has a lifetime of knowledge and investigation for many defenses and attacks, etc.....

But that doesn't mean that I can't or wont learn from all sources.

I am willing to learn from others pictures of escapes and techniques in here. That is what I am interested in.

There are many on here who accuse TC of being arrogant and saying that he thinks that kung fu is the end all of martial arts but this post by him doesn't sound arrogant to me or insulting for that matter. This is just one of the many posts where he states that he is interested in exchanging techniques with people in here and wants to learn from them but this thread always gets derailed with people trying to prove him wrong and cut him down. Instead of arguing with TC how about people posting some escapes of their own to the rear naked choke so that TC may maybe learn an escape that works better and he could maybe teach to his son. Hows that for an idea???? I've read where a few in here have said that TC is going to get someone hurt by teaching these bad defenses and escapes but aren't we just as responsible if we don't show TC a more plausable escape? Aren't we just as guilty for that person getting hurt as TC would be?? Just a thought.

[Kintanon]

I have already addressed this escape as completely as need be in my very first post to this thread.
This escape is LOW PERCENTAGE. It does not work reliably against a moderately skilled opponent or an opponent who has a strength advantage. It should be reserved for a point at which every other escape has failed and you have no other options. If you rely on this escape as your primary escape from an RNC you will be put to sleep 99 times out of 100. Possibly more.

That does not mean that this escape will NEVER work, or that the RNC is unescapable. But THIS ESCAPE is not the BEST escape from the RNC. Nor is it even focused on the best time to attempt an escape from the RNC.

Mr. TigerClaw's insistence that this escape is some kind of revolutionary discovery that no one except him knows how to perform correctly is an absurdity and his continued efforts to change the argument away from that and onto how he feels persecuted by the people at Bullshido and other message boards is deplorable.

TigerClaw: You are not qualified to teach grappling, and we have some evidence that you may not be qualified to teach Kung Fu either. If you could answer the repeated questions about the time that you spent with your Kung Fu instructors it would go a long way towards establishing your credibility. If you could also demonstrate your escape against a competent opponent of similar size that would go a long way towards establishing the validity of the escape.
We had one of our members attempt the escape as described and demonstrated and it didn't even come close to dislodging the arm before unconsciousness set in.
So at the moment all of our evidence and experience points towards your described technique being AT BEST a low percentage, desperation technique, and at worst completely useless.

[JadeDragon]

I have a tail.
I am not lying also.

Thats a good one. That's about as good as "the checks in the mail" OR "I'm from the I.R.S. and I'm here to help you".......LOL.

[Uncle Skippy]

I did show this technique to a semi pro MMA teacher and he liked it and agreed that is works. And no, I am not going to give his name. I have my reasons. I am not giving any more personal info here, take that as you want. I am not lying also.

There is no good reason to believe you just because you state you are 'not lying also.'

I have a tail.

I am not lying also.

I don't believe you (surprise!). It wasn't a strong lock if you got out. Basic physics and human anatomy says otherwise.

Did you try it against someone with basic BJJ experience? Even someone with as little as 3 months?

No?

Then your escape holds no water and you have no idea what you are talking about.

"But it works"

No, it doesn't.

NEXT!

I did show this technique to a semi pro MMA teacher and he liked it and agreed that is works. And no, I am not going to give his name. I have my reasons. I am not giving any more personal info here, take that as you want. I am not lying also.

Each technique will work differently , (I mean in slight variations) with different people. For example if I am teaching how to escape a grab around the chest locking the arms from behind. It will work for people of similar size very well. But if the person grabbing the student is a huge 6 fott 3 man 280 pounds and built like a rock and the student is a 10 year old kid weak as a feather and 4 feet tall etc. Then the big guy just picks the kid into the air and the technique changes. These are obvious things. The same goes for fighting a highly trained Kung Fu fighter or a beginner. The techniques that are needed for both vary at times.

I would first teach my students how to avoid even getting into a RNC. If they fail at that then i would show them how to react before the choke is put on, and if the choke is put on them, I give them other options. I don't stop and say, oh well your dead now. I can teach you nothing at that point. And no I am not talking about when the choke has been on them full force for 4 to 7 seconds. I am talking about the initial timing and reaction, just before full force is put on.

But again there are many factors. Does the skilled fighter do the technique right, if so what is his height and weight and strength.

All these things matter. If I have a 4 year old kid try a rear naked choke on a hulking 6 foot 2 man with massive arms. The kid has thin stick like muscles and very weak arms. The kid will not be able to stop the force of the large muscular man from forcing his elbow up or pulling his hand up and forward from behind the head. It is hard enough for a man of equal size to resist the leverage of the tugging and pressing of the elbow up and out. It is very hard for the young kid to stop the larger mans force.

So I am not saying that this technique will work for everyone no matter what. All techniques have parameters.

But I certainly don't want to give up and say, "your finished if he just starts to lock you. As many seem to do.

I have been practicing this more recently with full force and I still manage every time to get my head out of the arm lock.

Here is a principle I teach.

Hold your fist out strait in front of you. Now have another person put their hand on top of your fist and push down. Try to stop him. You won't be able, the force pushing down is easier to achieve than the force pushing up. Now do the same thing, extend your hand out and have the opponent put his hand palm up under your fist. have him try to push your hand up and you push down. he won't be able to push you up as easy.

There are certain weak areas of the arm and muscle tension that allow the opponent to push down, but not up. The same principle works for this technique. But when you push the elbow up, you keep your arm close in and tight to your body, this allows you to use more of your body and not just the arm. Also you are not just pushing the elbow up, that is not as easy, remember, if the opponent is forcing his elbow don and you going up, that will be difficult. So you push the elbow up at a 45 degree angle. The force needed to push an elbow up is not easy, but when pushing the elbow up at an angle you will se how easier it is. Try this on your own elbow. take your left hand and tuck it in to your side, have your left hand on the left side of your face, now take your right palm, face up and push your elbow strait up. It will be impossible almost, Not push it to the side, it is easier. This is how you do the elbow push, not strait up. But that is only one part of it. You also grab his hand at the back of the head locking onto the inside of the palm of the attackers hand. and you pul up and forward as you push the elbow as well, this creates a double force on his arm that is difficult to balance. But, another very important factor is the tucking the head down and through the hole as you do this. If you did it fast and with sudden force, that jerky motion loosens the lock slightly and allows you to slip out. But don't forget to twist the hips to the side as you do this and crouch down suddenly.

[Uncle Skippy]

Its all about proper leverage and body positioning. Also you don't just rely on the push upward of the one hand or the pulling upward and forward of the other hand. The duck and tuck of the head is very important. At the same time as you pull the hand behind the head up and forward and push the elbow up hard with extreme force you duck and tuck the head out as you twisted your stance to the side and crouched.

I have done this many times and against a strong lock.

I don't believe you (surprise!). It wasn't a strong lock if you got out. Basic physics and human anatomy says otherwise.

Did you try it against someone with basic BJJ experience? Even someone with as little as 3 months?

No?

Then your escape holds no water and you have no idea what you are talking about.

"But it works"

No, it doesn't.

NEXT!