Technique discussions, pictures and video etc.

[-FIGJAM-]

Yeah, otherwise what's the point in taking them down. Good control means that he/she isn't going to escape so easily and put you on your ass, right?

Good point. Didnt think of it like that.

[Ben Grimm]

Yeah, otherwise what's the point in taking them down. Good control means that he/she isn't going to escape so easily and put you on your ass, right?

[-FIGJAM-]

I think csc made a general ill informed comment before uncle and is trying to re argue his point.

however i am interested in his response to which style lacks control.

I think he realizes that we have more then one or two take downs.

One way to look at it though, if you do take someone down, no matter how sloppy your technique is, wouldnt that show a level of control over your opponent? i mean you are trying to get them to ground, you get them there...

[Ben Grimm]

TigerClown, If an experienced grappler put you in the aforementioned hold, you would have a maximum of 5 seconds, before you were out cold. I've been choked out before in a Rear Naked Choke. I heard 1..., 2...., then nothing. And this was a training session, where anything goes (with the exception of anything that causes permanent injury or death). I don't know about you, but I train to be able to protect myself and my loved ones, so I'm only interested in high percentage techniques and counters. The techniques I saw you post, looked too risky for my liking. Try, a grappling art for just one month. If you learn nothing from it, that's OK, but I'm sure if you open your mind, you will learn a lot.

[Uncle Skippy]

Just comparing the "under hook" and "single leg", you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

Nope.

Let's get back to your original statement:

MMA guys will take their opponent down and then looking for a control. CMA guys will control their opponent while standing and then take their opponent down (by locking or throwing). IMPO, the CMA approach always has a head start (you are already in dominate position before going down to the ground).

You are making a blanket statement. It is too general to have a point.

What do you mean by 'MMA guys'?

Are you saying that 'MMA guys' only go for the single/double leg?

I believe the joint lock should be integrated with throw. For the RNC, you will need to use your knee to press on your opponent's back and then pull him down to the ground ASAP. While your opponent is sitting on the ground with his neck been pressing forward, none of his counters will work.

MMA guys will take their opponent down and then looking for a control. CMA guys will control their opponent while standing and then take their opponent down (by locking or throwing). IMPO, the CMA approach always has a head start (you are already in dominate position before going down to the ground).

Allowing your opponent to be able to stand on his feet when you apply joint lock will not be to your advantage (too many counters can be applied by your opponent).

There are other RNC escapes also that work good, one involves taking them to the ground right away.

[csc]

Just comparing the "under hook" and "single leg", you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

[Uncle Skippy]

We are sort of arguing about it. You originally said this:

MMA guys will take their opponent down and then looking for a control. CMA guys will control their opponent while standing and then take their opponent down (by locking or throwing). IMPO, the CMA approach always has a head start (you are already in dominate position before going down to the ground).

which implies that 'MMA guys' lack control before the takedown. Actually, you don't imply it; you state it.

Now you say that 'MMA = CMA + ...'. But I thought 'MMA guys' lack control before the takedown?

But now that CMA guys are MMA guys as well, how can you still say that MMA guys lack control beforehand while CMA guys 'control their opponent while standing'?

Insert aneurysm here.

I'm curious what you originally meant your statement that I quote in this reply?

Specifically, which aspect of 'MMA guys' (which style) do you believe 'lack control' before the takedown?

[csc]

Are you saying that a lack of upper body control means there is a lack of overall control?

Did you read my post? I said " During the moment of single or double legs take down, their opponent's both arms are still free."

If you control my legs and I control your head then I won't call that "overall control".

Have you ever been in a good MT clinch? I don't think you have if you don't think that is control.

Are you talking about joint lock such as over hook, under hook, elbow lock, waist surround, head lock, ...? Or you are talking about the general clinching situation that 2 persons has the similar control?

It's too difficult to answer your question without a concrete example.

[csc]

We are arguing about the definition of MMA. Of course if MMA = CMA + ... or MMA = Judo + ... then you are 100% right and there is nothing to argue about.

[Uncle Skippy]

The Judo approach is very similar to the CMA approach. They like to obtain dominate position before going down to the ground.

You mentioned MT guys as an example of not getting control first. Have you ever been in a good MT clinch? I don't think you have if you don't think that is control.

You didn't answer my previous question though:

Are you saying that a lack of upper body control means there is a lack of overall control?

[Uncle Skippy]

My understanding about their strategy is

- take down,
- find dominate position, and then
- apply submission.

So you are talking about BJJ in a drastically overgeneralized way?

Counter-point: Judo. Judo will dominate you standing up, then take you down, then dominate you on the ground, all the while maintaining control.

I don't counter your assertion that some CMA's work on the control aspect, but your assumption about 'MMA guys' is misguided based on limited personal experience.

Drop in a Judo school for a week trial and just to check it out.

[csc]

The Judo approach is very similar to the CMA approach. They like to obtain dominate position before going down to the ground.

[Uncle Skippy]

Most of my MMA (guys who train BJJ, MT, and boxing) friends like to use single or double leg take down, they will take down their opponent first and then looking for a dominate position so they can apply arm bar, leg bar, or choke. During the moment of single or double legs take down, their opponent's both arms are still free.

First, there are a lot more takedowns than single and double leg in MMA. Judo practitioners in particular (Karo Parisyan being the most touted in MMA) tend to have an encyclopedic knowledge of how to get you to the ground whether you like it or not. If they want to take you to the ground, you will be on the ground. Really.

Are you saying that a lack of upper body control means there is a lack of overall control?

[csc]

Most of my MMA (guys who train BJJ, MT, and boxing) friends like to use single or double leg take down, they will take down their opponent first and then looking for a dominate position so they can apply arm bar, leg bar, or choke. During the moment of single or double legs take down, their opponent's both arms are still free.

My understanding about their strategy is

- take down,
- find dominate position, and then
- apply submission.

We were talking about how to get out of a RNC, to be clear are you describing a better way to put one on?

I'm talking about if you "complete" the RNC by putting your opponent on the ground, then it will be very difficult (or even impossible) to counter.