Ngo Cho Kun

[konghan]

I reside in the U.K.

I have travelled througout the east and trained with various practitioners from different styles.

I understand what you are saying about sam chien and the tensioning but i feel, certainly from my pesonal experience that you can work through the tensioning until it becomes relaxed, at this point more power is free to flow through the body and be released....i now punch/strike with a relaxed hand and arm and find i can deliver more power than when tensioning...I belieive the idea is that you practice tension in the beginning in order to undertsand relaxation?

certainly for me it has produced good effects and i am now able to deliver a more powerful blow and a quicker succession of blows as my body is relaxed and able to move faster with less resistance to motion?

this coincides with scientific research into agnostic muscle behaviour?

regards

I beleive what you are referring to would be something like a boxers jab right?, a relax quick snap like a whip, & yes that stinging power comes from constant training of muscle tensioning & using the shoulders to help that arm quickly move back & forth with the punch.

Tensioning to deliver a punch comes in two ways,
1. thru a snap, whipping jab that can basically allow you to land successive punches almost like the wing chun style of attack & this is done with constant training in tensioning until the muscles have build up internally allowing you to throw a relax or jab punch.
2. delivering a one concentrated power punch into a focus target with the intention of breaking the bones. This kind of punch requires a lot of muscle tensioning plus coordinated movements of the legs, hips & shoulders. With good muscle development from constant training in muscle tensioning that power punch can inflict both external & internal damage

Therefore, it is more of a matter of how you as a NCK fighter is more comfortable with using. If you have master your self to use the quick hand attack as long as their is enough power in those punches then it shouldn`t matter much.

Me personally, I have kind`d condition myself to use quick hand bridging-blocking combining with power punching of 2-3 combination with controlled muscle tensioning. This meathods allows me to keep the attacker off balance & at the same time preventing him from counter attacking becuase I make him feel the pain of my attack & he would be too busy trying to cover up plus the use of tripping footwork.

If your attacker try to go down aiming to grab your legs like a wrestler, I would say the best defense is to use the sang kaw ho kun " double hook parry tiger punch" I don`t if that`s the right phrase but that technique can be found in song sui.

But actually you can find it in sam chien too, remember the double low block with one leg in a kicking position, that double low block can be use to hold on to the incoming low arms of a wrestler then with the lead leg kick to the face.

[millie]

and he drew a hoppy picture

like mister rabbit on a rainy day

[jingshen]

not quite, in benerating power it is important to understand what power is?
how do we measure it?
once we can measure how how do we increase it?

when we can increase it how do we deliver it?

scientifically power = weight * speed ( ballistics)

in order to develop power we must move as much of our body weight in the direction we want to hit as possible in the fastest possible time?

the muscle fibres required for this are type 2b ( fast twitch) These are developed through 'complex' training which involves long tension exercises followed by relaxed fast movements.

In order to increase speed we need to relax and reduce agnostic muscle restriction( this is science fact) in order to increase weight we must move all the five parts( leg, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist). maximum weight x maximum speed will give us maximum power. Tensioning on impact will reduce, in whatever amount, the power delivered?

The prupose fo the strike within ngo cho is as ever not only to hurt your opponent but also to disrupt his balance/posture. it is not a fast snapping strike but a hard powerful blow delivered in the correct posture with a relaxed body arm and hand.

aas ever it is far easier to show than to explain, which is why i think there are so few books on this art?!

repectfully

[konghan]

not quite, in benerating power it is important to understand what power is?
how do we measure it?
once we can measure how how do we increase it?

when we can increase it how do we deliver it?

scientifically power = weight * speed ( ballistics)

in order to develop power we must move as much of our body weight in the direction we want to hit as possible in the fastest possible time?

the muscle fibres required for this are type 2b ( fast twitch) These are developed through 'complex' training which involves long tension exercises followed by relaxed fast movements.

In order to increase speed we need to relax and reduce agnostic muscle restriction( this is science fact) in order to increase weight we must move all the five parts( leg, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist). maximum weight x maximum speed will give us maximum power. Tensioning on impact will reduce, in whatever amount, the power delivered?

The prupose fo the strike within ngo cho is as ever not only to hurt your opponent but also to disrupt his balance/posture. it is not a fast snapping strike but a hard powerful blow delivered in the correct posture with a relaxed body arm and hand.

aas ever it is far easier to show than to explain, which is why i think there are so few books on this art?!

repectfully

I agree with the scientific explanation. And as you said it takes constant training of muscle tensioning inorder to achive that right punch.

What I notice is that, & maybe you can try this too is that when I deliver quick successive relax punch, then I stop at the target & observe my muscles, my forearm muscles are not really in the relax state. But in fact becuase of long training in muscle tensioning my muscles automatically tense up depending on how fast & how much power I put in in my quick punch.

That is why novice students when they try to do a quick punch, yes the quickness is there but no power because the muscles have not been develop to response automatically.

[jingshen]

yes, but in order maximise we must practice to reduce the tensioning as much as possible? the more tension the less speed and weight transference the less power?

whether the tension is automatic or not it will still have adtrimental effect on the strike?

i beleive the tension exercises are there so we can understand this and develop the relaxed softness?

if you don't know hard you can't tell soft?

just my thoughts!

i have really enjoyed this conversation!

regards

[Nothingness]

Jingshen:

I think I understand you better now. I agree with the relaxed delivery. I do the same thing. However, my concern is at the point of impact itself. From my understanding, there is some tensing needed at the point of the impact to create the momentum transfer. Otherwise, the energy will be transfered as a push instead of a punch. Could you elaborate more?


Regards

[jingshen]

Yes but more of a pulse.....you still want impact but any tension ibeleive will reduce either weight transference or speed thus reducing power.....the sinking on impact will force your power to be delivered in a way as to disrupt your opponents balance/posture and the forward motion will take them back thus rdeucing their posture and providing an impact blow?

[konghan]

question form me
when i practise sam chein do i relax or use tension
and does it matter so long as i hitt the correct points with the correct angle and direction as fast as posible for example stomach 9 and 10 on the neck or the eyeballs with the fire strick going forward
also have you wittnessed using chi without toach to unbalance or ko somebody for example draining stomach qi by bringing your hands quickly down the chest of some boby

Combination of several things, breathing, tensioning & in some points relax. Ex. in thrusting, when pulling in, breath in then relax get ready to thrust out, in thrusting out use jerking or whipping power the fingers are slightly bend & move in a downward direction exhale tense once it reaches the end.
In bringing down the elbow to a 90 degree full tense breath in then exhale on the way down. Breath in the nose exhale in the mouth air movement in the tummy not the chest. Stance must be firm.

Yes it matters breathing develop the chi & exercise the internal organs,muscle tensioning helps your tendons get stronger & condition them to act automatically in a fighting situation. You can start with angles first then work on the rest.

Chi without touch for me no, chi with touch yes. In bringing down the arm it is also use to condition your wrist, against wrist grabbing.

[Nothingness]

So, you are actually delivering the force all the way like those of taiji practicioner?

Yes but more of a pulse.....you still want impact but any tension ibeleive will reduce either weight transference or speed thus reducing power.....the sinking on impact will force your power to be delivered in a way as to disrupt your opponents balance/posture and the forward motion will take them back thus rdeucing their posture and providing an impact blow?

[konghan]

Yes but more of a pulse.....you still want impact but any tension ibeleive will reduce either weight transference or speed thus reducing power.....the sinking on impact will force your power to be delivered in a way as to disrupt your opponents balance/posture and the forward motion will take them back thus rdeucing their posture and providing an impact blow?

so the muscle tensioning training will develop this pulse that would allow us to deliver a quick punch with power, right? just like the inch punch concept.

Jingshen, I beleive there is a NCK school in UK right?

[jingshen]

Yes the tensioning, i believe is important in developing the softness, as i said, and these are just my opinions guys...

yes there are several schools.

i haven't mentioned the name or master as these are my opinions as a practitioner...they may be right or wrong but i am enjoying the exchange of ideas!

[konghan]

Yes the tensioning, i believe is important in developing the softness, as i said, and these are just my opinions guys...

yes there are several schools.

i haven't mentioned the name or master as these are my opinions as a practitioner...they may be right or wrong but i am enjoying the exchange of ideas!

You are lucky to have NCK schools in UK, here in Canada I beleive there is none. Are you planning to train to be a master?

[Nothingness]

Maybe you should invite a master and establish a school there . Nothing fancy, you can start at a park. Our training methods don't require fancy gears, anyway.

BTW, I sent you a private email.

[krys]

Just curious, where are you teaching in the UK jingshen?
Thanks.

[krys]

So far its mostly Japanese MA, Tae Kwan Do, Tai Chi, Wu Shu, Choy Li Fut, Mantis King Fu, Hung Gar, Brazillian JiJitSu, Jeet Kun Do & shoalin boxing which is almost the same as wu shu & Wing Chun that are known here.

Those arts have nothing in common with Wing Chun..... especially not useless wu shu.