Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[michaelg]

Hello!

Here is a very good link about your question:

http://www.iugte.com/projects/martial_arts.php

Is Tai Chi a real martial art?

[taoistscholar]

Yes, what makes it not a martial art

Tai Chi is about healing your body of all its problems. After your body is pain free your body continues to get stronger and stronger. Chi does this. For chi to flow you must find the void(wu chi). From emptiness comes tai chi. Tai chi is yin and yang complimenting each other and flowing as one. The flow comes from chi. After you become sensitive to the chi in your body your body will know how to react in a situation through what your opponent offers you. then your chi finds the defects of your opponents and seeps in like water and will destroy him/her.

Tai chi can be a dangerous martial art at high levels because you have so much energy inside you.

[jubaji]

Yah, this kind of blather by incense-muddled, self-indulgent drama-addicts is what leads so many people to ridicule, misunderstand, and disregard taijiquan as a MA. Way to go, champ.

[lucidmist]

Need To Be More Objective

Guys...

We're not being objective when stating our so-called claims or making our stands.

[lucidmist]

Need To Be More Objective

Firstly, the people slamming taiji have no clue whatsoever to what the art is about, or what it can do. Ok, Muay Thai may have defenses, but the fighters are trained to take hits too, and thus, it's tough to do damage to them unless you're really strong, or you happen to hit the right spot. The fighters do their best to land kicks and punches, and can shrug off attackers hitting them, whether on the ring or on the streets. Not saying they do not try to avoid attacks. Of course they do. Only morons will not. Just saying they dare to take hits to return hits. Which is totally what fighting is about. This, however is the exact opposite of martial arts like Taiji or Wing Chun, or Aikido. These arts are developed to avoid getting hit, while being able to neutralize or strike the opponent with the maximum force, and bring them down fast and hard without having to take too many hits. Offense only comes after defense, and offense is maximized fully when the defense has done its job of creating an offensive opportunity. Of course, in any fight, you'll definitely get hit. That's unavoidable. And definitely, if a taiji practitioner is gonna get a good punch from a muay thai practitioner, or ANYBODY in fact, most likely the taiji guy will go down.

But remember one thing: if the muay thai boxer or whatever boxer throws a punch or a kick, and it doesn't hit, but gets deflected and redirected, that leaves the attacker open for whatever that comes next. And I'm telling you this - taiji guys have plenty of power.

Then again, this scenario of a punch or kick not connecting and leaving oneself open to the opponent's attack is common in any fight, of any discipline. So, my point is this: it doesn't matter what discipline you fall in, heck, even if you don't know martial arts, all it takes is one good move, one lucky opening, and you can take a guy down. This is not universal, of course. Plenty of fighters out there who can take many hits, many moves, and can create openings for themselves. But no one is a perfect fighter. Martial arts are created by humans, and thus they can't be perfect too. Even the so-called ultimate art of taiji. The prowess of muay thai is highly augmented by the body conditioning, but even that, does not render the art "perfect". And there's no such thing as being "more perfect" than the other.

And on Shaolin martial arts. Shaolin martial arts is the origin to all martial arts. Definitely the different arts have evolved to surpass some of the more flashy techniques of shaolin martial arts. However, remember one thing. The students of shaolin martials from before and nowadays, are totally different. The original students had to go through vigourous and intensive training, taking hits from thick wooden staffs and bricks to condition their whole body, INCLUDING their heads. They train hours, from morning till evening, daily. It's the new generation that doesn't put in enough effort to perfect their art. Lack of discipline and true training simply put them at a total disadvantage. The shaolin martial arts, like muay thai, was used in the battlefield as well. It was meant to counter opponents wielding spears and swords after you have lost your own weapon. The capabilities of shaolin arts being able to break weapons are not false. They trained to achieve that. We talk about fighting on the streets. But tell me, what battle or fight is worse than on a battlefield, during war? The original shaolin practitioners were used by emperors and kings to fight wars, often helping gain the advantage. It's only after corruption, greed for royal posts and favours that slowly shadowed the spirit of the shaolin training, rendering it not as formidable as it originally was. This, I have to respect muay thai for - for still being able to maintain its spirit, and thus its prowess. Sorry shaolin arts practitioners, I don't mean that there isn't a single good one of you around. Just that, the really good ones know better than to stoop to competing to prove their skill. They understand what martial arts is about.

Again, I stress that there is no better art, or perfect art. There is only a good fighter or a bad fighter. Lucky or unlucky fighter. Faster or slower fighter.

As for slamming Bruce Lee.

Listen up. If Bruce Lee was "only a movie star", then you guys spouting this nonsense have literally insulted thousands of people taking JKD seriously, people who started JKD as beginners to martial arts, as well as people who have had trained in various forms of martial arts, including muay thai, and added JKD to their training. You have insulted all of these people, and from what? Your one-sided basis because you have your asses on your heads as brains? Have you guys met Bruce Lee? Have you guys fought him? Don't use childish or low remarks like, he's dead and all that shit. The point is, you don't know the man, you don't know jack shit. I could say I can take you, your daddy and your masters down, but I can't. Cos I don't know who you are, or who they are. They might be able to whoop my ass good. Just as possibly as Bruce can whoop yours. So watch what you claim. Basically, watch your mouth.

So the man used his skills to make it as a movie star. Anything wrong with that? That doesn't render him a false or weak martial artist. If someone's gonna offer you a movie deal where you can make tons of money with your skills and what you know, are you telling me you'll turn it down? And for accepting it, does it make you a lousier martial artist cos you're a, "movie star"? Not only did he become a martial arts star, he became an inspiration to many. Can you ever, in your lifetime, achieve what he had achieved? Tell me how many people you have inspired in your life, besides being a so-called "tough" martial artist.

And being a better fighter can prove what? Learning a better martial art can prove what? That you can own someone? Heck, if that's what martial arts is about, then that's really sad. Whether Bruce was real or was a farce, it really doesn't matter. He had good philosophies, theories, knowledge, techniques, ideals, principles and guts that could possibly surpass all of ours. And at least he knows that it's better to avoid a fight than get into one. That alone is bigger and better than all you braggarts screaming "i'm better" and "i'm gonna kick your ass" because why? Because it speaks of "maturity" and true understanding of what martial arts is about.

There's no point you knowing the best art, you being able to fight the best, when your understanding of the entire philosophy of martial arts is trash. At the end of the day, you're still the major one that's lacking.

If you take someone down, he has learnt humility. But you, on the other hand, get bigheaded, and in time, you'll get pigheaded. Ego is a totally wrong thing to have as a martial artist. It breeds over-confidence and complacency. You have already sowed the seeds of defeat for yourself, by feeling you're better, thinking you're better, because someday, someone's gonna beat you and you won't be able to handle it.

For those asking the question of which art is better... just choose something that you like. Something that you believe in. Work hard on it. Train hard in it and develop a passion for training. As long as you have focus, whatever somebody else has learnt, however strong that person is, you're gonna give him a hard time taking you down. This, I can promise you. At the end of the day, it's still up to how much effort you put in. If somebody else has trained harder in his art than you have, unless you have superior natural aptitude or talent (which is rare), he's definitely got the upper hand. Remember. In any fight, focus is the key.

I, for one, wouldn't wanna go up against Homer turned Incredible Hulk.

[jubaji]

What a pointless, overly-long, annoying post.

"Listen up"

"I'm telling you"

"Believe me"

"Watch your mouth"

Save it for your therapist, champ

[Tom Yum]

My limited understanding about taiji is that its a way of movement that not only improves health and balance, but has some self-defense applications as well. Tai ji guys can deliver power, but its not the same kind of explosive impact as a muaythai fighter or boxer - they've got an extremely strong sense of grounding, balance, stance and using their trunk they can uproot and move people.

Yes, even muaythai has its weaknesses. The stance is high -- therefore succeptible to take down attempts unless they cross train. Muaythai doesn't train in weaponry (unless its paired with krabi-krabong) and muay thai fighters may not be used to seeing certain kinds of kicks from styles like tae kwon do or angular strikes from gong-fu styles, but make up for it by being well conditioned, able to take a hit and able to counter attack quickly.

I will learn taiji someday -- I can't think of a better system dedicated to the improvement of a persons body and mind, but I'd like to focus on combat applications first and foremost.

[lucidmist]

on jubaji 's post.

firstly, nobody asked you to read it. secondly, if you have nothing to say, don't act like a child.

grow up. and next time you want to point a middle finger, point it in person, not hiding behind a screen, showing how "tough" you are. i made no personal insults or signs like middle fingers at anyone, and if you read well, your own post is the most pointless of all.

ah. just... grow up.

heh, if you want to flash anyone middle finger and hurl more insults, by all means do it. it just shows what your training, or even your life, hasn't taught you.

[lucidmist]

Self-Defense

to tom yum, true, it would probably be faster to pick up another martial art for combat techniques and self-defense.

but whatever art you're into, will ground you in the basics first, where you form a strong foundation for your kicks and punches to deliver enough power. whatever else you do or however you use the techniques, are based on your own "feel" or your intuitive reaction during actual combat, usually after awhile of training. i'm sure you know more than me how it all works.

ok, i'm not a good martial artist, and i can't fight well. but when i was 16, i was attacked by 4 bikers with helmets, raining hits on me. i'm not ultra muscular or tall, and at 16, i only had about a year's taiji knowledge (self-trained), so in other words, i'm not that much better off than an amateur. but they couldn't bring me down, and i could fend them off, and they gave up on trying to attack me after a few minutes. true, the helmets did connect a few times cos all 4 of them were hitting me at the same time, but without knowing exactly what i did, just by intuition, i warded off most of the attacks to the vital parts of my body, while hitting theirs, and by the next day, i didn't even feel that much pain at the areas (my back, my forearms) that were struck. i was really lucky.

ahh.. ok, don't get me wrong. i'm not advocating that taiji is the best. there's no such thing as a "best style". just that, in any style that you're trained in, in any combat situation, even if it's a free-style compeition, no holds barred, at the end of the day, you just got to have your basics very grounded, enough to deliver your maximum power most of the times during points of contact, and the rest is up to your mind to "capture" the openings, incoming attacks or opportunities. things like focus, reaction speed and time, can't be taught particularly in any style. you can develop it, but it can't be implanted, not like punches and kicks. punches and kicks are tools that your mind will seek to react with, to use. in a real fight situation, if your mind isn't developed, all the so-called "best" techniques are useless. at best, the body conditioning you received during training will let you take more hits and last longer, but you're still not a very effective martial artist that way. effectiveness in self-defense (not combat sport) is when you can avoid the most hits and yet bring the opponent down. otherwise, if the opponent happens to pull a knife, and you don't need a big knife, just a small pocket knife, you're gonna be in trouble. or if he happens to be much stronger and bigger - and if there's no way of running away. i know, many will start posting stuff like, if someone's gonna pull a knife, it's trouble anyway, or things like, if someone's using a knife on you, you'll change your fighting strategy. look, in a real fight, it's full of surprises. sometimes, there's just no way you can physically "see" what the person is doing or about to do, or what weapon he pulls out of nowhere. you can't "plan" what you intend to do or how you intend to defend yourself in a fast-changing situation. if your mind isn't developed to react intuitively, there's no way you can survive that kind of situation, and even with a developed mind, chances are already slim. in that sense, no particular style will ever be better than another. it's just what's right for you that will help you develop and grow as a martial artist and what doesn't. because certain styles work for certain people.

ok. so who else is gonna throw more insults? ok. i apologize if i said stuff like "listen up" or "believe me" or "watch your mouth". but it's just sad when people are hurling direct insults at styles and masters who've learnt much more than us, without even really knowing these people and styles in the first place. is that what martial arts is about today? about putting styles and people down? so what if you've learnt a style and find it lacking, and switched to another style which seems better to you? maybe it's cos you have a better aptitude towards that particular style, and were just not suitable for the other style. that's why there are different arts and artists. each one excels in a different way, through his or her own suitable style. knowing something doesn't mean you can apply it well, or apply it best. and whatever i've said, fine, it may be curt, but i did not use foul language or foul "signs" or direct personal insults.

for whatever it is, my apologies on another long and "pointless" post.

[jubaji]

No one is impressed, punk. Now STFU

on jubaji 's post.

firstly, nobody asked you to read it. secondly, if you have nothing to say, don't act like a child.

grow up. and next time you want to point a middle finger, point it in person, not hiding behind a screen, showing how "tough" you are. i made no personal insults or signs like middle fingers at anyone, and if you read well, your own post is the most pointless of all.

ah. just... grow up.

heh, if you want to flash anyone middle finger and hurl more insults, by all means do it. it just shows what your training, or even your life, hasn't taught you.

Assfacesayswhat?

[lucidmist]

still behind a computer screen.

[jubaji]

still behind a computer screen.

Wow, you figured out the internet already!

[lucidmist]

wow

you mean besides using it for insulting people throughout the forum and not giving constructive views? long before you, child.

and 1 more point to you for learning to use the space bar. but it seems you have to inject insult at almost every one of your posts throughout the forum. i'm sorry you got bullied when you were a kid, and still can't stand up for yourself now. but if you need to stoop to typing over the internet to vent your frustrations over getting sodomized or having no one stand up for you, then i'll leave you to your own delusion world of "i'm winning this!" over the internet.

heh. you can win this internet war. i'll let you.

[jubaji]

If you're gonna STFU, then just STFU and STFU already

heh. you can win this internet war. i'll let you.

Wow, you even suck at giving up.

[47MartialMan]

Why is it that most martial artists, esp on forums, state how well they did, took on bikers/bouncers, and they were/are a biker/bouncer? Why is it that they post their fisticuffs and a win and never relish on defeat or loses? Why is it that such has to be done to achieve credibility or demonstrate skill?