Kali Tudo (tm) in action

[Garland]

As for looking at things in terms of beats and half beats...here's an analogy I think makes some sense;
In naming things in biology, there are 2 camps, or schools of thought- "lumpers" and "splitters", people who try to lump everything into one heading, and others which split things down into more specific categories. And apparently, Guro Denny is a "splitter". It has been in my experience that those who make more distinctions in the martial arts tend to be better technicians, tacticians, and perhaps most to the point, teachers, because they know EXACTLY how to reproduce a technique or series of movements. As is said, the devil is in the details.

Otherwise...it's like EF said, any lead hand punch becomes a jab, and any rear hand punch a cross.

[Ghost]

Splitting techniques up and renaming based on their timing is daft when the technique is the same.
We dont do it for anything else, do we rename a jab depending if we step in on the jab and then punch or punch and land the foot at the same time no. Fact is we dont do this generally at all, so why do it now? and especially for something which relatively simple.

Can I rename the step and then punch jab as the Ghost Punch please and post a video of someone doing it to show how effective it is.

I know what you are saying Garland, and im all for bringing people in, but im also not going to stand by and watch just cos a name turns up.
I dont see any need to just move out of the way cos someone with a name turns up.
Its my opinion and im sticking to it like glue, sorry.
But i will leave posting about it for now and make no further comments on the matter for the sake of peace.

[mellow]

The technique may be the same but depending on the situation the timing may make the difference between the technique being effective and ineffective. It may seem like splitting hairs to you but when teaching and training someone (especially someone with no experience) it is oftentimes neccessary to make these distinctions. Naming things is a time saving tool when training also.

[Gongoozler]

Can I rename the step and then punch jab as the Ghost Punch please and post a video of someone doing it to show how effective it is.

You know, given the deceptiveness of such a sudden change in range, that may even be more descriptive a name.

[fire cobra]

Its been my experience that people who seperate techniques into different timings are either a) very experienced fighters who have fought against the same level opponents or b) very inexperienced people who have either never fought or are still at novice stages.

Its possible to teach novice fighters such concepts but very few if any would be able to pull them of in the heat of the battle(ie when somones trying to knock you the ....out!).

Which are you guys?,me? 50 Thai boxing and kick boxing bouts,former British Thai Boxing Champion,former OFS wrestler,silver medal in the English championships,so been there and done it,can I seperate the half,quater beat etc? against a equal experienced fighter only on the simpelest of techniques..ie a jab,I still call it a jab though.

[Tant01]

Our buddy "Crafty Dog" is a well known big gun in the industry! (the real deal as they say)

Feel free to google him. I think his reputation speaks for itself...

[fire cobra]

Our buddy "Crafty Dog" is a well known big gun in the industry! (the real deal as they say)

Feel free to google him. I think his reputation speaks for itself...

Dont need to Sir,I have heard of "Crafty Dog".

[Garland]

Which are you guys?

I am a novice with a tiny bit of experience...that being said, I still believe my argument to be valid, and I see it applying to many things outside of martial arts also. As a sweeping generalization, making distinctions and splitting hairs so to speak allows somebody great precision and accuracy in something...it allows for mastery of a thing.

This is true in academia as I believe it to be in the martial arts...I've heard a friend of mine who is a jiu-jitsu practitioner say that the big difference between a purple and a black belt is the fluidity and nuances behind techniques and not a new series of techniques. (I don't know if this is true or not, but if so, it certainly supports my prior position)

Of course technique comes with time, and in a trying situation like a fight technique tends to go out the window quick...novices are sure to drop alot of what they learned...but over time those subtleties will become engrained as they are maintained throughout contests, right? Or is it just go out and "bang" and let technique come later or manifest on it's own?

I'm not being flippant, and I pose all of this with all due respect, as you are certainly the expert...and these are actually questions of which your answers may benefit me, so for my edification, what is your position on this idea of "splitting" things down to learn?

[fire cobra]

I am a novice with a tiny bit of experience...that being said, I still believe my argument to be valid, and I see it applying to many things outside of martial arts also. As a sweeping generalization, making distinctions and splitting hairs so to speak allows somebody great precision and accuracy in something...it allows for mastery of a thing.

This is true in academia as I believe it to be in the martial arts...I've heard a friend of mine who is a jiu-jitsu practitioner say that the big difference between a purple and a black belt is the fluidity and nuances behind techniques and not a new series of techniques. (I don't know if this is true or not, but if so, it certainly supports my prior position)

Of course technique comes with time, and in a trying situation like a fight technique tends to go out the window quick...novices are sure to drop alot of what they learned...but over time those subtleties will become engrained as they are maintained throughout contests, right? Or is it just go out and "bang" and let technique come later or manifest on it's own?

I'm not being flippant, and I pose all of this with all due respect, as you are certainly the expert...and these are actually questions of which your answers may benefit me, so for my edification, what is your position on this idea of "splitting" things down to learn?

Garland,

I agree that splitting things down to learn can be vauable,personally I like quality from the beginning of my boxers training,however sometimes things can be broken down to far or to much theory taught when not really needed at that time in the boxers development.

In the example you used of your BJJ friend who says its the fluidity and the naunces thats the difference beetween a purple and a black belt,I would agree,but a black belt would still call a scissor sweep a scissor sweep,a triangle a triangle etc,even though he could apply it smoother or neater than the lower grades.

I asked the question(Which are you) because sometimes novices without any or with little fight experience can belive something (such as half beat,quarter beat etc) is important to them,but once they step into the ring they usually realise it was impossible to seperate such things under a pressure they had never experienced before.

Ive lost count of the times guys have said to me after their first bout
"oh that was hard,I thought I was ready but I wasnt ready for that" or words to that effect,Im sure you know what I mean,Its hard enough for most to be able to hold their hands up for 3 rounds never mind anything more finate.

So your right over time the small things which can make a big difference do get engrained over time,a experienced fighter may be able to operate on the half beat,quarter beat etc,though It still isnt easy against a good opponent.

I didnt think you were being flippant in your post,and I certainly dont want to set myself up as the "expert" in these matters,Im still trying to learn and grow the same as you.

I dont think this post has said anything that you didnt already know,Its just my viewpoint bro.

Good luck.

[Crafty Dog]

Woof All:

I posted here originally in a spirit which I felt was not being reciprocated by some. This has nothing to do with the merits of the question presented, but with the tone of things and things said that were rather non-responsive to what I had previously posted. No big deal, it is just the internet so its not a surprise when this pattern presents itself-- so I walked away for a few days.

Now that I take a quick look today I see there are some people who seem interested in conversation and therefore will give another go at having that conversation.

The point that seems elusive for some (and perhaps the failure of communication is my responsibility in whole or part) is that the Zirconia
is much more than the one motion of front hand up the center while the rear foot steps to the forward outside diagonal.

My experience in teaching this technique is that many people doubt the initial motion-- they must not have met those here who know it to be conventional wisdom ;-) -- and so I was tickled to see it applied, albeit in unpolished form, at the highest levels of the UFC, and thought to present my interpretation to peer review.

The clip at Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts on "Kali Tudo (tm): The Running Dog Game" is NOT about the Zirconia, but perhaps it will give a bit of the flavor of why I think Kali Tudo is not part of most people's "we have that too" style. The clip about our first Kali Tudo DVD, in which the Zirconia IS taught can be found at Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts

Perhaps the visuals of these clips will help communication take root here.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

[Tant01]

Thanks very kindly Mr. D.

It is clear you are on the cutting edge.

[Max22]

Confusion about

I only just two days ago recieved my Kali Tudo tm(how do you superscript on this forum..can you?) and I have to say people are missing the point of Guru Denny's post, and what he meant to highlight.

Guru Denny is an articulate guy and doesn't need me to defend him, but hopefully he won't mind if try my hand at articulating the point.

On a t-shirt in a conversation between Eric "Top Dog" Knauss and Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny, there is a rather thought provoking slogan that is entirely germane to the discussion at hand. "Smuggling concepts across the boundaries of style." Hitting from angles (which is what the zirconia helps you to do) isn't unique to DBMAs. Many styles, and disciplines sing the praises of finding the angles, but you don't see it, either taught or fought, as often as you would like. And when you do see, it is likely that it is something that fighter in question possibly fell into. Guru Denny likes to use Naseem Hamed as an example of using footwork to hit from angles. I would have used Roy Jones Jr as an example of using foot work to hit from hard to defend angles. Typical MMA, Muy Thai, Boxing, Judo, alot of wrestling is taught as standing more or less square with your opponent. There can be lot of skill in that, but it doesn't permit for myriad attacking options.

I am as yet, of course, no expert on the Kali Tudo material. However it did, rather suddenly alert me to much wider range of possiblities based soley on strategies that help open up angles. All Guru Denny was pointing out with this initial post was that attacking on an angle is an effective strategy. And you can point to fighters across disciplines who are successful using strategies highlighted by Denny and crew in Kali Tudo.

To wit, Shogun broke right, launched a stiff left hand as he did so and was about to come back in with big kick as Chuck fell. Its the foot work that is at issue. The punch isn't a zirconia, its the quick angled outside step, and the following step inward on the new (hopefully) unprotected angle. the ways you disguise and capitalize (punches, kicks, elbows, sticks, knives etc) are incidental. Shogun simply provided a very current, very succinct example of how effective this kind of thing can be. Granted it would have looked different 5 years ago when Chuck still had a chin, and taken the form of a crisp combination.

A couple of tangental points about Kali Tudo if I may. I have to say it has been immediately helpful in identifying a certain linearity in my own approach to standing fighting. For the past year or so, I had hit a wall, as a small heavy weight, I've always favored counter fighting and so I just began developing my philly shell as leading always got me in trouble (against my mostly bigger and stronger training partners). Kali Tudo has been eye opening for me in that it showed that my attacking footwork from Kali has broader application than I had originally seen. "Smuggling concepts across the borders of style" well yes indeed, but also shattering a fighter's technical dissonance. I speak as someone who was initially a bit skeptical (which is a good way to begin I hasten to add).

[Tant01]

Good stuff

I only just two days ago recieved my Kali Tudo tm(how do you superscript on this forum..can you?) and I have to say people are missing the point of Guru Denny's post, and what he meant to highlight.

Guru Denny is an articulate guy and doesn't need me to defend him, but hopefully he won't mind if try my hand at articulating the point.

On a t-shirt in a conversation between Eric "Top Dog" Knauss and Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny, there is a rather thought provoking slogan that is entirely germane to the discussion at hand. "Smuggling concepts across the boundaries of style." Hitting from angles (which is what the zirconia helps you to do) isn't unique to DBMAs. Many styles, and disciplines sing the praises of finding the angles, but you don't see it, either taught or fought, as often as you would like. And when you do see, it is likely that it is something that fighter in question possibly fell into. Guru Denny likes to use Naseem Hamed as an example of using footwork to hit from angles. I would have used Roy Jones Jr as an example of using foot work to hit from hard to defend angles. Typical MMA, Muy Thai, Boxing, Judo, alot of wrestling is taught as standing more or less square with your opponent. There can be lot of skill in that, but it doesn't permit for myriad attacking options.

I am as yet, of course, no expert on the Kali Tudo material. However it did, rather suddenly alert me to much wider range of possiblities based soley on strategies that help open up angles. All Guru Denny was pointing out with this initial post was that attacking on an angle is an effective strategy. And you can point to fighters across disciplines who are successful using strategies highlighted by Denny and crew in Kali Tudo.

To wit, Shogun broke right, launched a stiff left hand as he did so and was about to come back in with big kick as Chuck fell. Its the foot work that is at issue. The punch isn't a zirconia, its the quick angled outside step, and the following step inward on the new (hopefully) unprotected angle. the ways you disguise and capitalize (punches, kicks, elbows, sticks, knives etc) are incidental. Shogun simply provided a very current, very succinct example of how effective this kind of thing can be. Granted it would have looked different 5 years ago when Chuck still had a chin, and taken the form of a crisp combination.

A couple of tangental points about Kali Tudo if I may. I have to say it has been immediately helpful in identifying a certain linearity in my own approach to standing fighting. For the past year or so, I had hit a wall, as a small heavy weight, I've always favored counter fighting and so I just began developing my philly shell as leading always got me in trouble (against my mostly bigger and stronger training partners). Kali Tudo has been eye opening for me in that it showed that my attacking footwork from Kali has broader application than I had originally seen. "Smuggling concepts across the borders of style" well yes indeed, but also shattering a fighter's technical dissonance. I speak as someone who was initially a bit skeptical (which is a good way to begin I hasten to add).

Kudos!

I think his name for it is good too (fake diamond?)

[Guest]

I have been a fan of the Dog Brothers for a long time. Their approach, attitude and humour have been a great thing in martial arts for many years now. Their achievements have my full respect. For that reason I own a number of their DVDs, and last year I picked up the Kali Tudo ones. I applaud and respect what Mr Denny is trying to achieve. His love of the Filipino Martial Arts is inspiring him to show how versatile they can be, and therefore how they apply to the world of Mixed Martial Arts. Because of the respect I have for the Dogs, and the admiration I have for his motives, I very much wanted to buy into the Kali Tudo Concepts.

I have watched the DVDs a number of times now, and I’m afraid that I have to agree with Ghost and Fire Cobra. The methods from the DVDs that I have seen enjoy success in the MMA arena are not ones that I would credit to the art of Kali, and are certainly not attributable to a new label of Kali Tudo. I appreciate that Kali has a Boxing art and a Kicking art, and that the methods used in MMA may very closely resemble these. After all, its two guys punching and kicking each other. That said, I’m sure we could analyse fights all day and pick out nuances and fractions of techniques that we could attribute to our own art. I find that a bit thin, and I think all of us know where the methods of MMA come from, I don’t think its ever been in dispute. I personally find it misleading and unfair to try and analyse techniques down to the minute detail, and make very subjective comparisons to your method, in order to justify labelling them as your own.

Kali is a highly respected art in it’s own right, and the Dog Brothers are highly respected practitioners of it. To me, they have nothing to prove. The question to be asked with Kali Tudo therefore is - why feel the need to convince people that Kali can be relevant in the world of Mixed Martial Arts? To be honest I think I’m pretty sure what the answer is. In the Academy where I currently train, a trend has become very clear. There are 30 people on the mat in the BJJ class, 30 people in the Kickboxing class, and about 4 people in the Kali class. MMA has taken the world by storm and opened people eyes, it is a commercial tidal wave that has swept away a lot of other arts and training methods. If your art is Kali, and you want it to be relevant and successful, then this is the challenge you face.

Mr Denny is trying to infuse the art of Kali into the world of MMA, to keep it thriving and relevant. Once again, I applaud him for that. I think the challenge he faces is that MMA is made up of long established sport-specific ring arts that are designed for that very purpose, and have proved themselves beyond question. Kali has many benefits, it is an art that I love and I teach. However, I don’t honestly believe you can retrofit it’s methods into the combative world of MMA, just to try and surf the wave. I hope I’m wrong and I hope he enjoys great success, if he does I’ll be on his doorstep and ready to learn. From what I have seen thus far, I personally remain unconvinced.

[rooke]

Devil's Advocate

Before I proceed with my opinion, let's just remember what they say opinions are like...and that "everyone's got one". So here's mine, based on 16 years in martial arts (most of those in the SE Asian variety)...

Although I have not seen Kali Tudo 2, I do own a large number of Dog Brothers DVD's. In particular, I would say that no one questions Crafty's skill as a fighter, his courage for fighting, his experience, or his incredible skills as a Pitchman (and I mean that in the best possible manner, with no derogatory overtones).

A lot of what's been presented in the majority of Crafty's DVDs are not original material. A lot of them are standards in Kali and other martial arts. That's not what he's presenting. What he presents is the subset of techniques available that can be pulled off in a full contact, non-cooperative fight. That's very important to note.

Although I disagree with naming of common elements to give it a unique identity for your organization, that's a side-issue to the argument and entirely up to the organizations themselves. I disagree with it, but don't really feel like discussing it now. The real thrust was his illustration of how a Kali technique was used successfully "When the pressure is on". And although the ability to use a technique against a skilled opponent requires certain attributes and tons of practice hours yourself, the knowledge that its possible in such an engagement is valuable, especially if you practice it well enough knowing you focus your time more on the "essentials" and less time wasting it on low-percentage moves.

Martial arts have a tendency to grow with time. Instructors add on their own moves to make their art unique and to add students by appealing to wider audiences. Pretty soon, a simple, small, efficient system, get's burdened with flowery excess. Now we've got curriculums abounding which take 10 YEARS JUST TO LEARN (not to master or hone). Mr. Denny is helping us focus on what the essentials are, in a format that illustrates their use in non-cooperative situations. And occasionally, there is a diamond that shows that they are truly pioneers (showing grappling when it was still in its infancy, and showing BJJ grappling with a stick, which is still pretty rare). I purchase his DVD's, not for the "new" knew knowledge I expect to get, but to see what elements of what I know, are being used successfully in pressured engagements, and how they are being applied.

Rooke