How many of you carry weapons?

[krys]

What really kind`d amaze is that all those are actually being taught & practiced in most third world countries before it became a trend & people who live in a high crime rate areas are just doing those things.

In third world countries-risk areas you need to acquire survival strategies very early in life.... a kid thrown in watter will learn to swim quickly or drown.....

[old skool dude]

Swim or drown

[QUOTE=krys] In third world countries-risk areas you need to acquire survival strategies very early in life.... a kid thrown in watter will learn to swim quickly or drown....

not only in third world countries, but also High risk neighborhoods in the so called "urban" areas of the United States.

I recall a very sobering experience I saw in a karate class that I took several years ago in Harlem. The Black belts had some free time on their hands after class ended and decided to play around with a rubber knife. Each person took turns trying to disarm the attacker, and each person got "cut to ribbons" and "killed" in the process. The game got rather serious and desperate as each black belt tried their hand at unsuccessfully defending themselves against the attacker to no avail.
Finally, one of the under belts (who obviously had a lot more "street experience") than the other "experts" took off his gi belt, and used his belt and his gi top as improvised weapons to fight against the knife. His strategy worked perfectly. Not only was he able to disarm the attacker, and sustain minimal injury, but also was able to get a couple of distracting shots in.
I always remembered that episode..(which later led me to seek out a realistic system that addressed knife defenses!!) As reing one of the most enlightening self defense lessons I had in the class all the years that I was there. (To his credit, the under belt was the instructor"s teenage son.)

[old skool dude]

This onely SOUNDS like a stupid question....

My question is, since running away, or "getting out of dodge" is a sensible alternative to avoiding conflict, how come there's no "system" or technique involved for doing that?

I think we take it for granted that if we do roadwork on a regular basis that we will be able to escape from a situation simply by outsprinting an attacker.

What if he's faster? or in better condition?(not to stereotype but at least in the "hood" these brotha's play basketball "all day long" so they gots endurance too!)
As martial artists we should develop or seek out techniques involving escape and evasion. Now granted, I DONT know how to do this, so I'm looking for suggestions.

One thing I do when I do my roadwork is practice sprinting a block as fast as I can while zig zagging, changing direction, uising broken rhythm etc. I try to invision myself being chased, grabbed, trying to get away, etc. Again, I think some attention needs to be put on this aspect of training and quite frankly I havent seen or heard of anything.

Women are advised to "run away" yet women joggers in central park in NYC get mugged on a "regular" (how come THEY dont just "run away?" heck, they'r unning already?)

Any thoughts about this guys?

[konghan]

My question is, since running away, or "getting out of dodge" is a sensible alternative to avoiding conflict, how come there's no "system" or technique involved for doing that?

I think we take it for granted that if we do roadwork on a regular basis that we will be able to escape from a situation simply by outsprinting an attacker.

What if he's faster? or in better condition?(not to stereotype but at least in the "hood" these brotha's play basketball "all day long" so they gots endurance too!)
As martial artists we should develop or seek out techniques involving escape and evasion. Now granted, I DONT know how to do this, so I'm looking for suggestions.

One thing I do when I do my roadwork is practice sprinting a block as fast as I can while zig zagging, changing direction, uising broken rhythm etc. I try to invision myself being chased, grabbed, trying to get away, etc. Again, I think some attention needs to be put on this aspect of training and quite frankly I havent seen or heard of anything.

Women are advised to "run away" yet women joggers in central park in NYC get mugged on a "regular" (how come THEY dont just "run away?" heck, they'r unning already?)

Any thoughts about this guys?

Awareness is about knowing your sorrounding, paying attention to sounds, sights & smell. Most of the time joggers I notice have walkman in their ears running unattentive of their sorrunding. having a walkman while running or jogging outdoors for me is not healthy & safe. It tend to underdevelop our hearing senses & conciuosness to be aware of things around us.

When running on a public park it is wise not to have a walkman we want to develop not only our stamina & health through running or jagging but we also want to develop our sense of sight by staying focus on the road in front, side & back of us, listen to strange sounds & smell of anything unusual.

[krys]

As martial artists we should develop or seek out techniques involving escape and evasion. Now granted, I DONT know how to do this, so I'm looking for suggestions.

One thing I do when I do my roadwork is practice sprinting a block as fast as I can while zig zagging, changing direction, uising broken rhythm etc. I try to invision myself being chased, grabbed, trying to get away, etc. Again, I think some attention needs to be put on this aspect of training and quite frankly I havent seen or heard of anything.

Again have a look at SYSTEMA ... they made a tape on surviving in a confined space I think..

Some possible drills: obstacles running, have some friends chase you in the woods, /prohibit you leaving a room/car ...Somebody is behind you (you are sitting, liying down,......) and tries to catch/hit/stab you will have to find solutions to avoid it and escape.... all this can be done in the dark also....
knowing how to roll away and fall may be of great help...

Women are advised to "run away" yet women joggers in central park in NYC get mugged on a "regular" (how come THEY dont just "run away?" heck, they'r unning already?)

Many women panic easily, if they panic they won't be able to outrun a man for long and will commit mistakes... a lot also don't really read the signs and are not really aware of possible criminal behaviour.... Anyway I wouldn't recommend a woman to go into the woods without any weapon... help will probably not be available so they need something to back up....

[krys]

Well anyways neadless to say you're completely right about woman not reading obvious signs and being completely oblivious to bad areas and people in general.

Many men don't also explain the basics things to do/avoid to their girls.... For example I can't understand how some guys let their loved ones come home late at night through risky places while they sleep or watch TV at home or stay with other friends....

[konghan]

Many men don't also explain the basics things to do/avoid to their girls.... For example I can't understand how some guys let their loved ones come home late at night through risky places while they sleep or watch TV at home or stay with other friends....

It is called " bahala na system", let will be will be. One can only be so well prepared for any circumstances but they should not let it affect their rigth to enjoy life.

One can tell his / her loved ones not to stay out late & if they don`t listen what do you do? lock them up? punish them for disobeying you? then what happend?

When I was a teenager, I disobeyed my parents several times by staying out late & sometimes I have to be careful in going home late becuase in the neighborhood that I lived in Paco, Paz area there was always a gang war going on the anak pawis vs. sputnik gang usually they start fighting at around 10:00 pm sometimes 9:00 pm & they use "pana" (arrow projectiles) & "sumpak" ( homemade shutgone).

For those who are familiar with the streets of Quipo, Sta. Cruz, Rizal Avenue, Miserecordia, Pedro Gil, & Paz street would know that those areas are hot spots for muggers.

But does that stop me from staying late, no I gess not. And it was during those late hours in going home that I expereince fighting off muggers.

[krys]

It is called " bahala na system", let will be will be. One can only be so well prepared for any circumstances but they should not let it affect their rigth to enjoy life.

One can tell his / her loved ones not to stay out late & if they don`t listen what do you do? lock them up? punish them for disobeying you? then what happend?

When I was a teenager, I disobeyed my parents several times by staying out late & sometimes I have to be careful in going home late becuase in the neighborhood that I lived in Paco, Paz area there was always a gang war going on the anak pawis vs. sputnik gang usually they start fighting at around 10:00 pm sometimes 9:00 pm & they use "pana" (arrow projectiles) & "sumpak" ( homemade shutgone).

For those who are familiar with the streets of Quipo, Sta. Cruz, Rizal Avenue, Miserecordia, Pedro Gil, & Paz street would know that those areas are hot spots for muggers.

But does that stop me from staying late, no I gess not. And it was during those late hours in going home that I expereince fighting off muggers.

I don't know about the anak pawis gang but the sputnik gang is still active... I'm not sure about panas but sumpaks and knives are in use....Quiapo is famous for snatchers and jeepney robbers... You can get mugged in Makati (business district) at night too, one foreign friend got stabed there because he made a wrong move during a mugging...

One can tell his / her loved ones not to stay out late & if they don`t listen what do you do? lock them up? punish them for disobeying you? then what happend?

Well the sister of a girl I knew was living with her boyfriend near Cubao, she used to go to the MRT at 5 a.m. in order to go to work but he often forgot to accompany her prefering to sleep instead.... result she was murdered after somebody tried to rape her....

Personally my fiance is smart enough to avoid dangerous places/situations and knows how to fight but there is no way I'll let her alone in risky places at night...

It is ok if you are a men who knows how to fight but not for women... danger is far greater for women...

I too used to stay out late at night, got into troubles as a teenager many times. Actually being in the streets as a kid made me more perceptive of danger and prepared me for bigger troubles I had later in life...I got problems in some unsavory places in Indonesia and the Philippines .... Southern Mindanao in particular is a very dangerous place to live: guns and goons country... you cannot take the car in some places at night without at least a .45 and some areas there are completely inaccessible without bodyguards if you are not a local....

[Sportgrappler]

A Legal & Effective Weapon

This may sound crazy, but the BJJ & Judo guys will understand.

I saw an advert for a special kind of watch band that is extendable and robust. It is to be used for performing Ezekiel chokes on the street.

If you don't know what I'm talking about then imagine putting your thumb in through the far side of your watch band (as if you're checking the time and put your thumb in at 12:00, not 6:00). Then slide your watch-wearing side hand forward, a little like an X block but with the opponent's neck running through there.

It's tough to explain but it's a good tool. Also, the band was arranged in such a manner that you don't put your thumb in but actually grab it instead (and don't loose your thumb).

I found it a sound idea.

[shuyun]

It's not that easy to block a knife attack ,novice or not, besides how do you know he's a novice ?

Another tma with no experience of the real world. Take it from me if someone pulls a knife either run or pull a weapon yourself.

Totally agree there too. I was in a textbook situation a few years back. guy behind me and a knife to my throat. Believe me there's nothing text book about it. I realized in a flash that even if I got all my moves right he can still make the wrong move and get me cut. if he spasms, gets scared, gets brave or gets stupid i'd get my throat cut.

and so there i threw the text book out the window and struggled to keep the knife as far away from me as possible and watching the knife transfer from one hand to the other. And this was in a university setting.

TMA technique set in by reflex, I had my thumb perfectly on a dim mak point. Guess what, my hand froze and was not able to execute the technique. (What the hell was I thinking [rather not thinking as there was no time for that either] , but under the circumstances it seemed like a good idea).

My girlfriend saved my ass by distracting him with a slap to the back with her jacket. There was a point when I was on the ground in the guard and he was bending over knife in both hands and putting all his weight on that knife. That jacket could not have slapped any later.

Nothing textbook about knife fights. That got me into live training with my friends too. The only thing to my credit that day was, I fought fiercely enough to discourage his other two friends from joining the fray. The cops came 10 minutes after they left.

[Patrick G.]

My question is, since running away, or "getting out of dodge" is a sensible alternative to avoiding conflict, how come there's no "system" or technique involved for doing that?

I think we take it for granted that if we do roadwork on a regular basis that we will be able to escape from a situation simply by outsprinting an attacker.

What if he's faster? or in better condition?(not to stereotype but at least in the "hood" these brotha's play basketball "all day long" so they gots endurance too!)
As martial artists we should develop or seek out techniques involving escape and evasion. Now granted, I DONT know how to do this, so I'm looking for suggestions.

One thing I do when I do my roadwork is practice sprinting a block as fast as I can while zig zagging, changing direction, uising broken rhythm etc. I try to invision myself being chased, grabbed, trying to get away, etc. Again, I think some attention needs to be put on this aspect of training and quite frankly I havent seen or heard of anything.

Women are advised to "run away" yet women joggers in central park in NYC get mugged on a "regular" (how come THEY dont just "run away?" heck, they'r unning already?)

Any thoughts about this guys?

this is exactly a point i was trying to make in another post! finally, someone sees what i see...

everyone says run away...let's play devil's advocate here, using konghan's situation about being in a bar...if i were the pissed off attacker trying to cut the guy with a knife and he tried to run from me, believe me, i would catch his ass easily if i wanted to...granted, the average guy is not as fast as me, but there are guys that are just as quick, if not quicker than me (although it's rare... )

so the question then arises, how do you safely run away? and even more importantly, what if you are with someone who can't run as quickly as you, like your baby daughter or your grandmother?

I think one very important point you left out of your argument kanghan is that once you have the threat temporarily distracted or disabled, you must cease the threat...destroy it...plain and simple...

In firearms class, you are taught that if you pull your firearm, you'd better be meaning to use it..and when u do, u shoot to end the threat..

[konghan]

this is exactly a point i was trying to make in another post! finally, someone sees what i see...

everyone says run away...let's play devil's advocate here, using konghan's situation about being in a bar...if i were the pissed off attacker trying to cut the guy with a knife and he tried to run from me, believe me, i would catch his ass easily if i wanted to...granted, the average guy is not as fast as me, but there are guys that are just as quick, if not quicker than me (although it's rare... )

so the question then arises, how do you safely run away? and even more importantly, what if you are with someone who can't run as quickly as you, like your baby daughter or your grandmother?

I think one very important point you left out of your argument kanghan is that once you have the threat temporarily distracted or disabled, you must cease the threat...destroy it...plain and simple...

In firearms class, you are taught that if you pull your firearm, you'd better be meaning to use it..and when u do, u shoot to end the threat..

Well, once you have assess that the threat has been extinguished because either the attacker run away, decided to back off or is out of action. Then you, on your part is to quickly assess your situation, is everybody ok, time to take off & get out of the trouble area.

You don't want to "kill" unnecessesarily. That attitude to totally destroy is an attititude of a killer & murderer, I believe in MARTIAL VIRTUES.

As far as firearm & in any self defense training one is taught to be ready to use force, but shooting somebody who is no longer a threat is not the right thing.

I have condition myself to use force if needed but at the same time I have control over my adrenaline to "kill", life is precious be merciful & you will be rewarded.

I have only 3x ( & I hope I don't have any) had a situation where I had to quickly & instinctively decide to seriously harm someone & in three cases I was able to overpower them that it was not necessery to seriously hurt them by this I mean the possibility of inflicting death.

[Patrick G.]

Well, once you have assess that the threat has been extinguished because either the attacker run away, decided to back off or is out of action. Then you, on your part is to quickly assess your situation, is everybody ok, time to take off & get out of the trouble area.

You don't want to "kill" unnecessesarily. That attitude to totally destroy is an attititude of a killer & murderer, I believe in MARTIAL VIRTUES.

As far as firearm & in any self defense training one is taught to be ready to use force, but shooting somebody who is no longer a threat is not the right thing.

I have condition myself to use force if needed but at the same time I have control over my adrenaline to "kill", life is precious be merciful & you will be rewarded.

I have only 3x ( & I hope I don't have any) had a situation where I had to quickly & instinctively decide to seriously harm someone & in three cases I was able to overpower them that it was not necessery to seriously hurt them by this I mean the possibility of inflicting death.

i didn't mean for it to come off as if i was saying to "kill unnecessarily"...i said to end the threat...to neutralize it..that does not necessarily mean to kill the threat, but to make it so that he cannot try and inflict harm on you or a loved one at that moment again...

also, if it is necessary to kill someone, let it be...i am a very nice person by nature, but if my life or a life of a loved one is threatened and there is nothing else i can do but kill, then let it be...

i am not saying that running should be counted out..as u stated before, u should try and escape the situation as quickly as possible...i agree with you! but, sometimes you just can't do that..sometimes the situation does not allow that, sometimes u are with other people that can't escape as quickly as you...so u have to do what you have to do...

in the situations that you speak of personally, were u by urself? what if you had your baby daughter in your hand, couldn't run, and the only option was to draw? then what?

[konghan]

i didn't mean for it to come off as if i was saying to "kill unnecessarily"...i said to end the threat...to neutralize it..that does not necessarily mean to kill the threat, but to make it so that he cannot try and inflict harm on you or a loved one at that moment again...

also, if it is necessary to kill someone, let it be...i am a very nice person by nature, but if my life or a life of a loved one is threatened and there is nothing else i can do but kill, then let it be...

i am not saying that running should be counted out..as u stated before, u should try and escape the situation as quickly as possible...i agree with you! but, sometimes you just can't do that..sometimes the situation does not allow that, sometimes u are with other people that can't escape as quickly as you...so u have to do what you have to do...

in the situations that you speak of personally, were u by urself? what if you had your baby daughter in your hand, couldn't run, and the only option was to draw? then what?

Yes I agree if the situation doesnot allow you to escape or if your attacker refuse to give up or retreat & is really persistance then, I would have force to inflict serious harm. But I always pray ( I'm a spiritual person ) that it never comes to that.

In those 3 situations, (1). I was ready to shoot him, he back off so I thank God becuase I could have killed him, I know it because he frooze as soon as he saw I drew my gun he couldn't get his hand gun out his holster & I have mine alreday cock & ready about to be pointed at him.
(2) I had grab the screw driver of the thieve, he drop it becuase he got scare & stratle & panic when he saw me charging right at him with aloud kiaaa!! then he turn his back in all four trying to run away, I could have stab him at the back but I didn't something held me back & I think it was an angel who said to me "no don't stab him at the back" that was what I felt because I he was no longer a threat & was really scared that he run so fast away from the scene.
The (3) I could have beat up this tall guy really bad as he was already down in one knee covering up & was yelling for help & wasn't fighting back anymore, then I stop & let him go.

[darrianation]

I just copied paste from an earlier post I made in this thread with a few modifications.

Use of force ladder for civilians and there responses based on Jim Wagner’s model:

1) Visual Indication: - No injury- Response: Act confident, avoid, other proper responses.
2) Verbal indicators: - No injury- Response: Verbal deflection/de-escalation, avoid/escape.
3) Assault: -Minor injury- Response: Escape, use reasonable force. Basically you are aloud by law to match his intensity.
4) Felony assault: - Serious injury- Response: Deadly force.

A note on assault: No weapons-
1) If a person attacks you with no weapons then this can be considered a simple assault and deadly force may not be legally indicated.
2) If a person with a very large size disparity over you attacks, then you may go up the latter to deadly force.
3) If there are multiple attackers and you feel your life is in danger or you fear serious injury you may go up the latter.
4) If a weapon is produced by the attacker then move up the latter to deadly force.

Remember before you can use deadly force in any situation you must have reasonable fear of serious bodily injury, or fear of death for yourself or someone else! Basically if you are greatly out sized, out numbered, or out weapon’d (new word) and you fear because of the aggression of your attacker or the circumstances (such as a home invasion, etc) that you will be badly hurt or killed this justifies the use of lethal force. But be prepared for the legal ramifications both criminal and civil.

The big problem here and it gets dicey; is "the winner of the fight will be the one (unfortunately) who escalates the violence the furthest the fastest". This puts us good guys at a disadvantage. If we escalate to fast we can be the one going to jail. If we don’t escalate fast enough we can be dead. So exercise good judgment and let the force be with you, use of force that is.

My going up against weapons philosophy is simple:

1) Keep distance- RUN! Run! And RUN!!!
2) Use an obstacle to keep between you and the attacker (Table, car, tree, desk, etc).
3) Pull your own weapon if distance and time allows
4) Hasty weapons: Weapons that gives you better distance like a chair (you can swing it or throw it at the attacker to give you an opportunity to escape), Pool cue, tree branch, beer bottles (beer mugs), bricks, end tables, etc can all be used as weapons to keep distance and, or provide time/opportunity to escape.
5) Kick- kick to cause damage. This also helps to maintain distance.
6) Unarmed techniques or disarms: All the above has failed perform unarmed against armed techniques or in other words fight with your hands and feet and for ECQB (extremely close quarters battle) use disarms

* If you are armed with a gun, I would still attempt escape first, if there were no practical escape then shoot.

The basic triage works like this a knife is pulled by an attacker- run, or retreat to gain access to a weapon, use distance enhancers like a firearm, pool cue, chair, tree branch, 2x4, throw things such as beer mugs, rocks/bricks pull a knife of your own, finely feet (kicks), and etc.

If you are left fighting this guy empty handed then go for the knife hand controls/disarms just remember if you are lucky enough to grab the knife arm he still has a free arm (or maybe a 2nd knife), an elbow, two knees and feet, teeth to bite you with and a head in which he can head but, so he is still dangerous.