Sport Judo

[michaelarsanis]

.........continued

GREAT SAGE
QUOTE YOU: "You see, that’s where you lack realistic approach. It’s a street fight. The guy’s a BB BJJ, I don’t know that nor do I care. I use whatever means possible to end the fight and ensure my safety."

RESPONE: You will care. Trust me. If you know the guy your gonna fight is a professional fighter-you will care. I guarrentee it. Believe it or not, you WILL care!! Don't lie to yourself (or us).

QUOTE YOU: " When you start thinking in terms of styles, you limit yourself. Let’s say you’re in a fight with somebody. You have no clue who this person is, but you try a hip throw... But, it just so happens this guy is a master Judoka! What then?"

RESPONSE: You miss my point on that comment I made about styles. This goes back to the prior post where I felt you were trashing Judo as practicaly useless for self defense while praising jiujitsu. So basically I was saying that if you could defeat a good judoka so easily, do you feel you could defeat a BJJ blackbelt so easily. You speak of not liniting yourself to styles yet you do the same and you are violating your own priciple here by claiming that one is better than the other. So you yourself are thinking in terms of styles also!! But thats OK because STYLE DOES MATTER. We all know that there are some arts here that are generally more effective than others. Otherwise we would all be doing Tai Chi and Capoeria and Akido.


QUOTE YOU: "Your idea of a fight is called “matchfighting.” I haven’t had that kind of luxury since high school. , great..."

RESPONSE: A streetfight is a streetfight. If someone tries to start a fight with you and he IS NOT TRYING TO ROB YOU or whatever, and is just being an asshole, its STILL SELF DEFENSE. He could be harrassing your woman or be one of these asshole drivers who road rages on you and follows you or comes at you at a stoplight or someone who gets angry because he feels you bumped him when walking by or even looked at him wrong. That doesn't make it a "matchfight." It makes it self defense.

QUOTE YOU: "If I train in BJJ, it’s for the sport. When I’m in a real fight, I forget all that and use whatever will save my ass, BJJ or not. In that regard, I agree with you. If judo works

RESPONSE: Chances are, what "saves your ass" is what you've trained in. Otherwise why train at all? You Sage, have the confidence BECAUSE you are trained in various fighting arts. If you were completely untrained then I guarrentee that you wouldn't be so confident of your abilities if all you had was those eye lid rips, nostril booger pulls, or whatever. By themselves they aint much. In addition to being trained-yeah you could use them better.

[michaelarsanis]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Self-defense involves weapons quite frequently. That would be a situation that you did not particiapte in creating.

Fights, however, as Michael stated, will involve them less often. If you participate in the escalation of the problem, you are fighting, not defending yourself. Two assholes yelling at one another and throwing a few punches does not qualify as self-defense. It qualifies as crappy fighting. A Judo player, wrestler, boxer, etc. will wipe the floor with most of these people.

Self-defense, however, is a much different animal that involves far more in terms of danger to yourself than most fights. Weapons, multiples, sucker punching, and Murphy's Law rule here.

ITS ALL SELF DEFENSE!!

[ryanhall]

ITS ALL SELF DEFENSE!!

Not a chance. Fighting is not self-defense. Fighting is illegal, whereas self-defense is not. The former takes two people to happen. The latter needs but one aggressor.

Do not mistake the two. For someone with as much professed experience as yourself, I am very surprised that you do not see a clear distinction...

[ryanhall]

And don't tell me that weapons and multiples are rarely involved.

A kid I went to high school with is being charged with murder for getting two of his buddies and beating a kid to death--in front of a crowd and in a public place no less. Not a single person stepped in to stop them. It's pretty sickening, actually.

I personally have been threatened with weapons in the past. I know many poeple who have had similar experiences. Assaults tend to happen in places where weapons are either carried prior to the confrontation or are easily accessible during the confrontation (bars, houses, 'the street,' the list goes on). Sure, there are many encounters where both or all participants are unarmed, but you would be wise to treat every encounter that you get involved in as a potential multiple opponent situation. Also, always assume that the other guy has an equaliser. If he doesn't, great. If he does and you neglected to consider it, you could be in for a bad time.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by ryanhall

Not a chance. Fighting is not self-defense. Fighting is illegal, whereas self-defense is not. The former takes two people to happen. The latter needs but one aggressor.

Do not mistake the two. For someone with as much professed experience as yourself, I am very surprised that you do not see a clear distinction...

A finally someone remarking this, seems like everyone make this mistake
Selfdefence can turn into a fight though

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by michaelarsanis
Great sage,
the problem with our communication is that you change your story or meaning quite a bit during posts. Look at the following:

This is what you just now posted:

"If someone gets in close enough, I’m going to do everything in my power including: biting, eye-gouging, ear and nostril hooking, and perhaps stabbing or stoning to stop them."

This indicates that you are going to do everything in your power to defend yourself without guarenteeing any results. Hey, it might work, it might not. We can agree to that.

But look at the next quote of yours which was the FIRST quote that I initially responded to:

" ... Let me in close enough and I'll rip your eyelids off, hook your nostrils while you try and throw me... "

Do you see the subtle difference in wording that changes the whole meaning? Basically what you are saying here is that you will simply negate my throw simply by using those dirty tactics-NOT that you will attempt them, but rather that you will succeed at defeating a throw with finality simply by eyelid ripping or whatever. So you are making it sound as if you can and WILL surely prevent being taken down by using those tactics. Which is different than the other post.


So the top quote is realistic but the bottom one is narrow minded. Thats why I said that you are narrow minded - because of the bottom quote (which was your first). If you had said the top one (latest) from the begining, we wouldn't even be having this discussion!

So its hard to have a discussion with you because you are not consistent in your statements!!
continued.............

You’re analyzing techniques and specifics, whereas I’m illustrating a point. There are NO gaurantees in a fight, but I’d rather try something than nothing at all. I may not negate your throw, but the fact that you let me in close enough allows me to use whatever means possible, be it hooking nostrils, biting, stabbing, etc... It’s not about what I’ll do, it’s about the opportunity to do something.

Originally posted by michaelarsanis
.........continued

GREAT SAGE
QUOTE YOU: "You see, that’s where you lack realistic approach. It’s a street fight. The guy’s a BB BJJ, I don’t know that nor do I care. I use whatever means possible to end the fight and ensure my safety."

RESPONE: You will care. Trust me. If you know the guy your gonna fight is a professional fighter-you will care. I guarrentee it. Believe it or not, you WILL care!! Don't lie to yourself (or us).

Please... You sound you like someone who participates in kung-fu challenge matches. Most people are not in the habit of asking their attacker if they’re black belts, etc... In a confrontation, you don’t know who you’re dealing with. They could be anyone. How do you propose that I would know that I’m fighting a professional fighter? I wouldn’t know unless I actually saw him fight professionally. Even so, if the guy’s a pro, I would still do whatever possible to defend myself.

Originally posted by michaelarsanis
RESPONSE: You miss my point on that comment I made about styles. This goes back to the prior post where I felt you were trashing Judo as practicaly useless for self defense while praising jiujitsu. So basically I was saying that if you could defeat a good judoka so easily, do you feel you could defeat a BJJ blackbelt so easily. You speak of not liniting yourself to styles yet you do the same and you are violating your own priciple here by claiming that one is better than the other. So you yourself are thinking in terms of styles also!! But thats OK because STYLE DOES MATTER. We all know that there are some arts here that are generally more effective than others. Otherwise we would all be doing Tai Chi and Capoeria and Akido.

No, I think you overreacted and I didn’t miss the point. Neither did I put down judo. I simply stated what is commonly true in real assaults. Letting someone get close enough to touch you also gives them the opportunity to hurt you. You’re reading more into this than I wrote.

I DID NOT profess to be able to defeat a judoka easily. I DID NOT profess to be able to defeat a BB BJJ. And I DID NOT praise jiu jitsu. Furthermore, I DO NOT limit myself to style. I said that I use whatever means at my disposal, whether that be jiu jitsu, boxing, TKD, Muay thai, or plain brawling.

Originally posted by michaelarsanis
RESPONSE: Chances are, what "saves your ass" is what you've trained in. Otherwise why train at all? You Sage, have the confidence BECAUSE you are trained in various fighting arts. If you were completely untrained then I guarrentee that you wouldn't be so confident of your abilities if all you had was those eye lid rips, nostril booger pulls, or whatever. By themselves they aint much. In addition to being trained-yeah you could use them better.

Yeah... So what? Ofcourse my training attributes will carry over into a real situation. That’s a given, why else would I train. On the other hand, even the most untrained attacker has the ability to hurt someone. It’s not a given that trained martial artists will always thwart an attacker. I never once said that training is useless and we should all give it up. More power to you if you have more training.

[michaelarsanis]

Originally posted by ryanhall

Not a chance. Fighting is not self-defense. Fighting is illegal, whereas self-defense is not. The former takes two people to happen. The latter needs but one aggressor.

Do not mistake the two. For someone with as much professed experience as yourself, I am very surprised that you do not see a clear distinction...

Ryan,

If someone starts a "fight" with you and doesn't let you walk away and you are forced to fight back, isn't it self defense? And isn't it also two people "fighting"?

C'mon, your playing word games. This is ridiculous. If I defend myself then I am FIGHTING BACK. Its a FIGHT!! Call it what you want, who cares.

[michaelarsanis]

Originally posted by Great Sage


You’re analyzing techniques and specifics, whereas I’m illustrating a point. There are NO gaurantees in a fight, but I’d rather try something than nothing at all. I may not negate your throw, but the fact that you let me in close enough allows me to use whatever means possible, be it hooking nostrils, biting, stabbing, etc... It’s not about what I’ll do, it’s about the opportunity to do something

-------- Well, initially, you practically guarranteed that you would negate my throw by hooking my nostrils etc. Now you say you may not but that you would TRY. So you may want to be consistent with your wording because it changes the meaning-but alas I've already told you that so this is repetitive. You still don't get it. Either that or you are ignoring what I have made obvious.

____________________________________________________
Please... You sound you like someone who participates in kung-fu challenge matches. Most people are not in the habit of asking their attacker if they’re black belts, etc... In a confrontation, you don’t know who you’re dealing with. They could be anyone. How do you propose that I would know that I’m fighting a professional fighter? I wouldn’t know unless I actually saw him fight professionally. Even so, if the guy’s a pro, I would still do whatever possible to defend myself.

------- You may or may not know your attacker. And if he IS someone like a BJJ blackbelt, and you know it then you will care no doubt. So please stop with all the macho bullshit "I don't care who he is" nonsense. Only a fool doesn't care. (Or a nut.) I'm just responding to your bravado sort of tounge in cheek. Duh.


____________________________________________________

No, I think you overreacted and I didn’t miss the point. Neither did I put down judo. I simply stated what is commonly true in real assaults. Letting someone get close enough to touch you also gives them the opportunity to hurt you. You’re reading more into this than I wrote.

---- You DID put judo down by dismissing its efeectiveness. I'm only reading what YOU said my friend.
____________________________________________________
I DID NOT profess to be able to defeat a judoka easily. I DID NOT profess to be able to defeat a BB BJJ. And I DID NOT praise jiu jitsu. Furthermore, I DO NOT limit myself to style. I said that I use whatever means at my disposal, whether that be jiu jitsu, boxing, TKD, Muay thai, or plain brawling.

---- Well if you tell someone that if they try to use judo to throw you, ....".. Let me in close enough and I'll rip your eyelids off, hook your nostrils while you try and throw me... " then you HAVE in effect professed that you could beat a judoka.

____________________________________________________

Yeah... So what? Ofcourse my training attributes will carry over into a real situation. That’s a given, why else would I train. On the other hand, even the most untrained attacker has the ability to hurt someone. It’s not a given that trained martial artists will always thwart an attacker. I never once said that training is useless and we should all give it up. More power to you if you have more training.

[Szczepankiewicz]

C'mon, your playing word games. This is ridiculous. If I defend myself then I am FIGHTING BACK. Its a FIGHT!! Call it what you want, who cares.

Playing word games. That's funny. What the Flick do you think the District Attorney's office is going to do when they drag your butt into court?

There is a very fine, and very grey, line that differentiates self-defense and fighting.

Who cares? Just about anyone who's been in that situation and has to face the legal consequences of their actions.

Yes, it is ridiculous, but only because we in society have let it become so.

Check out your local and state statutes on the subject. I'd love to see what the great city of San Fran has documented on the subject. That oughta be rich...

Spanky

[michaelarsanis]

its still a fight dude. self defense is a fight. what makes something legal or illegal are the circumstances of each individual situation - not what you label it.

[michaelarsanis]

RYANHALL, I've never dismissed weapons as a possibility. I know they are out there but most assaults do not use weapons.

I asked SAGE to please leave weapons out of this discussion because we were discussing effectiveness of certain arts or styles on a one on one basis - not with weapons. I didn't want the discussion convoluted on another tangent.

So yes, its wise to be aware of weapons. Best legal weapon is pepper spray if you can't carry a firearm.

Mike

[BadgerFu57]

Getting thrown on concrete hurts. 'Nuff said. Even the foot sweeps hurt when you fall, especially if you don't know how to fall correctly. And if you throw someone, they are on the ground, you are standing and can run away. If there are multiple attackers and you throw one, you are still standing. One less attacker is standing. If you go to the ground, Judoka's know enough basic groundwork to armbar or sweep. I would say Judo groundwork is equivolent to about 3 months-worth of Jiu-jitsu. No, it is not the main focus, but there are some techniques. Anywho, we can argue all day. No form of unarmed combat is best for self-defense. Guns work the best. But I think Judo is beneficial. And I think we can agree judo is beneficial. My main reason for training isn't to beat people up on the street, but Judo may help me do that. If it doesn't, it's not my loss because I still enjoy the sport and make new friends and enrich my life.

Fin.

[Great Sage]

Mikey,

Obviously you don't understand the idea of someone "fighting mad" to stay alive or at least on their feet. You keep going back to the specifics of "well... If you hook my nostril, I'll still be able to throw you..." But let me tell you, let ANYONE in close enough and they have as much opportunity as you do, if not more if they're desperate, crazed or shot-up.

You keep implying that I'm displaying "machoism." How is this so? If I'm attacked, I'm going to do EVERYTHING in my power to diffuse my opponent, regardless of who he is. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of my opponent... Ofcourse not. But I care more about getting out. And it doesn't matter who's attacking me, they're gonna get ALL of me, because chances are that I won't know the person attacking me. Can you expect any less from me, or anyone else? Are we all suppose to lay our lives down because the attacker is a BB BJJ? Gimme a break... Your knowledge of real encounters isn't fooling anyone. It's less than impressive. I'm tired of beating a dead horse.

[Szczepankiewicz]

its still a fight dude

No, dude, it's not.

not what you label it.

You're right. I'm not the one who 'lables' it. The police, lawyers, judges and legislators are the ones who label it.

[jubaji]

Originally posted by Great Sage
Mikey,

Obviously you don't understand the idea of someone "fighting mad" to stay alive or at least on their feet. If I'm attacked, I'm going to do EVERYTHING , regardless of who he is. And it doesn't matter who's attacking me,

Sounds like granma's gettin' ready to lift the car again...