Sport Judo

[michaelarsanis]

GREAT SAGE,


...."Obviously you don't understand the idea of someone "fighting mad" to stay alive or at least on their feet"....

I do. You don't listen (er read) well. Go back and read again.

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...."But let me tell you, let ANYONE in close enough and they have as much opportunity as you do, if not more if they're desperate, crazed or shot-up"....

You're right. My main concern in defending myself is from a guy who is whacked out on PCP with a couple of bullet holes in him and drooling. Happens every day.

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..."You keep going back to the specifics of "well... If you hook my nostril, I'll still be able to throw you..."

I NEVER said that!! Go back and read. (again)

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..."You keep implying that I'm displaying "machoism." How is this so?"...

Its your A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E. I'm not gonna go over this a THIRD friggin time. If you cant read and comprehend I'm wasting my time.

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...."If I'm attacked, I'm going to do EVERYTHING in my power to diffuse my opponent, regardless of who he is. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of my opponent... Ofcourse not. But I care more about getting out. And it doesn't matter who's attacking me, they're gonna get ALL of me, because chances are that I won't know the person attacking me. Can you expect any less from me, or anyone else?"....

Wouldn't we all?

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..." Are we all suppose to lay our lives down because the attacker is a BB BJJ?"....


Yeah. Lay down and beg forgiveness. You don't stand a chance! Just kidding!

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...."Gimme a break... Your knowledge of real encounters isn't fooling anyone".... It's less than impressive".....

All those years I spent working the street don't mean nuthin. Shit. I'm heartbroken

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...."I'm tired of beating a dead horse"....

Me too. Arguing with you is like arguing with a chick.

[michaelarsanis]

One definition of fight: fight - fight against or resist strongly;

sounds like self defense to me.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ummm, yeah, thanks for quoting all those posts. I didn't quite catch 'em the first time.

[michaelarsanis]

Spanky, do you have anything to add to the discussion valuable?

[Szczepankiewicz]

I will add try to discussion valuable, yes yes.

Whatever you find in the dictionary is the correct literary definition to be sure. I'm not arguing what the word means in common parlance.

What I am trying to explain to you is that there is a difference, philosophically, morally, and more importantly legally between a fight and self-defense.

What you seem to be saying is that anytime two or more people are exchanging physical strikes, it is a fight. Period. Am I reading you wrong?

If someone grabs my European Carryall attempting to mug me and I strike them several times (or exchange strikes) to get them to let go, then proceed to escape the situation, that is usually determined to be self-defense.

In the same situation, if I struck said assailant, and he fell down, got back up and we exchanged strikes, then yes, that's a fight.

Proceeding on... if I get the upper hand and proceed to O Soto Gari his butt onto the concrete and continued to rain down blows upon his head until he passed out in a bloody mess, that's eligible for Assault and Battery.

If I take out my trusty walking stick and continue to beat said ruffian after he passed out, that's eligible for Attempted Murder.

There is a continuum of force at play here. It's subtle, I know.

[IPON]

Hey Michael, I have to agree with Ryan regadrding teh definition of a fight or at least the way it would be used leagally.

Agreed Fight: Generally speaking in a fight you have a "Choice" you can stay and fight or walk away. Y'know the old movie cliche "let's take this outside-that is a mutiually agreed to fight. Yes "fights" (fridly or no friendly) can and do quite often lead into self defense and that's where the lawyers will have a field day - "But Mr. X you could have stopped any time" "that is true Mr. X but your savagry caused my client to fear for his life" Etc


Self Defense: Generally speaking you do not have a choice. Bully, Mugging, robbery, rape, etc. Let's say something verbal happened at a club spilled into the street (but still verbal) the guys followed you to your car (still verbal) you go to open your car door and one of the guys stands infront of the door blocking you....that would be self defense

So from my perspective and legally, fights can be avoided, and Martial artist are especially scruntinized as we should be disciplined enough not to partake in the pettyness but only use our prowess when our lives or friends/famil lives are in danger. Not don't get me wrong I really have to control my temper and machismo, but legally I think that is the perception.

I work as a bouncer and I about 2 months ago I had a situation where I had to take this guy out of the club -2 guys. they struggled got messy the one guy tries to get away from me and strat to fall down the stairs. I grab the guy before his head hits the floor and take him out side. outside, he is cursing and calling me racial this and that. Anyway he called the police so I am outside and he is tryuing everything to get me to fight him. his shirt was ripped and he had a small cut from going down the stairs. Fortunatley, when the cops came they realizzed he was crazy if not I would be in jail not questins asked and I din't not lay a hand on the guy. The cop said it would be considered assault, I'm a bouncer guilty until proven innocent and there is not trial.

anyway my 2.8 cents

[IPON]

oh umm sorry for the interruption...pleez guys continue the feud it is going so well

[michaelarsanis]

SPANKY,

....."If someone grabs my European Carryall attempting to mug me and I strike them several times (or exchange strikes) to get them to let go, then proceed to escape the situation, that is usually determined to be self-defense."....

yes it is self defense but you could also call it fighting because you are indeed fighting back.

I do though completely understand your point and was actually aware of it prior to your post.

The only reason this issue came up is because one of the other posters was trying to say that fighting and self defense were completely different animals. fight = a willing contest and self defense = meaning weapons, robbery, multiple people, etc. Which I disagree with because there are too many variables that crossover between the two.

Its like drag racing and road racing. they are different but they are both racing.

Just like self defense and mutual combat are different but they are both forms of fighting.

[michaelarsanis]

IPON,
I do also understand your point. It runs in the same vein as SPANKY'S.

I guess it just depends on what the individual wants to call it. here is an example.

My 2 friends were leaving a club and as they walked down the street, there was 3 guys coming the other way. One of them intentionaly bumped my friend very hard. My friend then said "hey, why don't you watch it?!" And the guy that bumped him immediately punched him and then they began fighting. The other guy moved in to hit my friend also but my other friend pushed him away. he then turned and swung on my other friend who proceeded to kick his ass and then hold him down.

Now you would call that self defense because they were attacked for no reason and were not willing participants. And it was self defense. And it was also a fight. They were indeed fighting, exchanging blows. Willingly or not.

Now, both my friends told me that they had "gotten into a fight" and they did. But they were also defending themselves because they were attacked without provocation. If you are attacked and forced to fight back, you are indeed "fighting" and you are also engaged in "self defense". So either term would be correct in this circumstance, so labeling it one way or another wont change anything. The circumstances dictate whether or not a crime was involved and whether or not the DA decides to pursue charges.

This whole discussion came about because someone said that sport arts aren't good for self defense because self defense means weapons, multiple attackers, etc while fighting was a one on one duel so to speak. But you can see from the above example that they aren't black or white.

Legally speaking I don't even believe that "fighting" is defined in the Penal code as a crime.

Its like drag racing and road racing. they are different but they are both racing.

Just like self defense and mutual combat are different but they are both forms of fighting.

[IPON]

Michael I agree I don't know if fighting is defined per se but intention and assault are. It is almost semantics, basically you can say any agressive physical confronation between 2 or more peopel (or by yourself if you are a eff'in nut ) could be considered fighting.

Now under fighting you can say there are 2 types:

Willful fighting and self defense

so if this went to court some of the factors they would assess the level of risk and danger/threat, how did the fight start, what was the situation, could it have stopped prior to escalation. The history is taken into account. 110lb man putting his hands on Mike tyson face and Mike beatiung this guy into the ICU...Mike is going to jail, the lawyer would say well yes the guy was wrong but there is no real threat that would justify the response of beatingthe crap of the guy. Except threat can be a hard thing to assess in the moment becuase you don't know.

The differece with drag racing and road racing is the former is legal on designated tracks the latter is illegal as it done on public street and indiduals and propety can be at risk....that and somone get cut out of getting there take of the money

[michaelarsanis]

"The differece with drag racing and road racing is the former is legal on designated tracks the latter is illegal as it done on public street and indiduals and propety can be at risk....that and somone get cut out of getting there take of the money"

Well actually they are both illegal on public road.
Drag = straight line track racing. NHRA style
Road = on a track where you do laps. NASCAR, INDY, etc

I agree with everything else you said.

[Thai Bri]

Whats drag racing? Is it where you make a couple of cross dressers run down the street? Winner gets a new dress?

[ryanhall]

Michael,
Please take the time to visit the following sites and look at the forums there. They should give you a better understanding of the difference between self-defense and fighting.

https://www.geoffthompson.com

https://www.senshido.com

senshido forum-- www.senshido.com/sspg4.html

[Szczepankiewicz]

I think Michael gets the point, he's just stuck on the point that fighting is included in self-defense situations.


Yeah, I guess you're right.

Look at it this way.

The act of Fighting is a subset in self-defense.

But self-defense is never a subset in fighting.

This is similar to saying shooting is a subset hunting (an integral part of hunting) however, shooting in and of itself does not encompass the act of hunting.

Does this make sense?

If not, I'll try again. I've been wanting to form better definitions to use when discussing this topic.

[IPON]

Originally posted by IPON
Michael I agree I don't know if fighting is defined per se but intention and assault are. It is almost semantics, basically you can say any agressive physical confronation between 2 or more peopel (or by yourself if you are a eff'in nut ) could be considered fighting.

Now under fighting you can say there are 2 types:

Willful fighting and self defense

Hey I thought I gave a pretty good definition sorta kinda maybe