Thai Bri - Defense against firearms (or anybody else)

[Szczepankiewicz]

I'll quote an infamous man on this one:

"It Depends"

A lot depends on the attacker and the situation.

Technique wise, getting offline and controlling the weapon arm should be paramount.

However, I deal with a gun threat by having one of my own.

[Greenthink]

COMPLY! Give them whatever property they want. DO NOT ever let them take you someplace like down a basement, into the woods etc. That means they are going to KILL YOU!
Attack immediatly.It is very important to remember the majority of people shot do not die. If injured don't stop to examine your wounds until the bad guy is no longer a threat (dead) or you will go into shock.Tell yourself or another that most people shot do not die, this will keep you going!
Wrist locks work practice them with empty guns often (or replicas). You can disable the arm with a good knife cut across the top of the wrist.Or a stab to the kidney area will often paralyze them.
If they are taking you someplace it is time to go for it. Slow down a little bit so they poke you with the gun,that tells you where the gun is ,spin around sweeping your arm stepping sideways and grab the gun hand. Use your finger nails to dig in not the pads of your fingers. Always concentrate on the weapon.
You can block the action of the hammer or the trigger usually the hammer. A goverment issue .45 can be disabled by hitting the slide backwards, that is for experts.With a wrist lock you can point the gun back at them and pull it towards them they will shoot themselves.Twist the gun with their finger stuck in it that will create compliance. Do not forget to punish them severely,by that I mean cripple. Any peice of shit that goes around trying to hurt people has done it before and will do it again. Turn the weapon on them if possible .you will be doing society a favor.

No amount of money or property is worth risking being shot, but if they want to take you someplace else there is a reason. Very important. . That is how you will know when to act, if they try to take you someplace else . They are going to KILL YOU.

[Ha_ari]

I agree with Chris. But, if you have to protect yourself, and you don't have the optin of running or giving your assailant what he wants, if it looks like he is going to shhot, then I have 2 words for you:

krav maga.

I've posted about KM on these boards before, and I'm not training KM right now (doing MT, BJJ, some JKD), but the firearm defenses they teach in KM are awesome. They would take a lot of practice to be good at, but they are very simple movements and actions (basic motor skills, nothing fancy or complicated), and with sufficient practice, I really think you might have a good chance of escaping with your life from a firearm assault.

If you want to see what it looks like in action, go check out www.amirperets.com. He is a complete bad@ss, and is involved in training the Air Force special forces-type division, I believe.

[nolimitskarate]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I am assuming that we are talking about a firearm held to the your body.

cheers
chris

Possibly - or a person brandishing a weapon and still within striking distance - there are different possiblities - I was hoping to discuss the possiblity of several different scanarios and see where it goes.

[nolimitskarate]

If you want to see what it looks like in action, go check out www.amirperets.com. He is a complete bad@ss, and is involved in training the Air Force special forces-type division, I believe.

Checked out the site - interesting. (1) issues with this -

in his self defense demo video (I know that it's supposed to be as dramatic as possible) once he had control of the gun, there was still an agressor and he threw down the gun (big no, no).


Has anybody else looked at him or this site - checked out his videos ??

[Szczepankiewicz]

Speaking of Krav Maga we have a new forum on Martial Direct.

The Krav Maga Training Journal. It'd be intersting to get Scissors' take on the gun defenses.

Hmmm

Spanky

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz


Bitty-

No no no no no that cannot be possible as all guns in the UK are illegal no one would EVER think to break those laws.

The government will take care of the problem. Worry not your heads about such things.

Spanky

To put inaccurate words into someones mouth when you debate with them is surely a sign of your failure to deal with the issues. I have never said this, nor anything like it.

[brokenelbow]

A gun is a distance weapon, not a close range weapon. Defending against a knife i understand, the guy has to be near you to effect his attack. A gunman could be near you but generally he wont be that close. and you have to move faster than his reaction time and his finger muscles. That is near imposible to do at any distance from him.

Chris no offense, but where did you get your information? Most gun robberies are up close.

[michaelarsanis]

I wanted to respond. I took classes at the local community college in police science a few years back. The instructor showed us an exercise:

Basically he had a student stick an unloaded gun up to the instructor's stomach. The instructor told the student that as soon as you see me go for your gun - pull the trigger. Each and every time the teacher slapped the student's hand a way, by the time the student pulled the trigger, the gun was already pointing away from the instructor. Why is this?

Because it takes the average person 3/4 of a second to react to something. First you see it, the signal is sent to your brain, then you decide to react, and then you do react. This whole process takes 3/4 of a second. It takes less then 3/4 of a second for the instructor to grab the gun away because there is no reaction time involved. He doesn't have to wait to respond to something. He just acts, while it is the bad guy who had to go through the responding process. This is the opposite of a reflex movement where there is no thought process. You put your hand on a hot stove and you instinctively lift it without thinking. There is no delay there.

Most robberies are with the gun held at close range because the robber wants your wallet. So based on that I know gun disarming techniques can work at close range. Most criminals don't know that though and don't expect resistance. They probably think that the gun in your face is intimidating, and it is. But its the best oportunity for you to grab it.

I can elaborate more on the reaction time thing. Recently there was an LAPD officer who responded to a halloween party and one of the party goers (an actor) pointed a toy gun at the officer through a glass door. (not knowing he was a real cop and the cop not knowing he was toying around) the officer shot and killed him. I think like 4 or 5 bullets in the guy's back.

The family sued stating that the officer executed him by shooting him in the back. This was disproved in court. Basically because in the delay of the reaction time of the officer. The subject pointed the gun, the officer immediately drew his weapon and fired, the subject turned away in defense and was hit in the back. This all happened in less than a second. The time it took the subject to turn was like in the thousanths of a second.

Let me clarify. They showed a demo on the same program. A video with a guy who would point a gun at you and immediately turn and run. As soon as you saw the guy point the gun at you, you were supposed to say "BANG." So the reporter tried it. Each and every time the the reporter saw the guy point the gun at him he said "BANG" and each and every time he said it, the gunman was already turned around to run and the reporter's bullets would have hit him in the back.

So you do have the advantadge in making the first move-just dont mess up. Its a choice you have to make now.

[chris davis 200]

Good post above. Some interesting points.

Chris no offense, but where did you get your information? Most gun robberies are up close.

Maybe i didnt frase it quite right. I mean that it is generally used at a distance ( a meter or two) from the target. Not miles away, but not so much, barrel to head.

Of course i dont live in an environment where gun crime is prevelant, so thanks for the information. I am probably wrong!


on another note!

Yesterday i was training with my Japanese Master in TJJ.

We were doing Gun defence! In a traditional system!!!

He said that origionally it would have been a tanto being held but it was directly translatable to Gun defence.

Now i dont get blinded by who he is - the moves were simple and effective defences. I have seen them in modern combative methods, but these are from the samurai era. Definatley not modification to the syllabus they have been present for a long time traditional methods.

Cheers
Chris

[Szczepankiewicz]

I have never said this, nor anything like it.

That's why I didn't preface my comments with 'Bri Thai said...'
nor did I quote you in any way shape or form.

Lack of sugar making you grumpy old man???

Spanky what likes the kata.

[Szczepankiewicz]

In response the weapon disarms and reaction times.

Yeah, those might work if you do it, do it well, do not miss, and are facing someone who knows next to nothing about using a gun.

Granted, most thugs might be idiots who do not know how to use a gun, but betting on your opponents lack of ability is a poor training method.

RMCAT deals a lot with this. If you have a bunch of money you can go check it out.

Spanky

[kengar]

I guess one of the best ways to defend against a guy that wants to shoot you is to - not allow the situation escalate to the point where he wants to shoot you,

First, sometimes there is just nothing you can do to prevent someone from getting to you. Second, this statement does have value. I had a bad altracation with a person trying to take my head off with a pipe, and I handled it fairly well. Until I made a huge mistake, I let the guy get back to his car because I thought he was trying to leave. Wrong, he was needing his pistol. I made a bad tactical error and it almost cost me. Never will I allow someone to walk away from the situation of that threat level.

Give him your money, give him you clothes, your car,

I understand why you make this statement but I can not live by it. I will say that every situation is different and will require a different response. But I must make the choice not to give some criminal my belongings. It's not about material possession or pride. I will not allow criminals to walk all over me or my community. Criminals are here because will allow then to be, we allow them to rob us, we allow them to rome freely because we don't want to report them to the police becuase we're either scared or don't want to inconvience ourselves with something that doesn't involve us.

once an aggressor gets a gun on you it's to late to try and draw on your own - correct me if I'm wrong.

Definitely a piss poor place to be, but there have been many cases were the defender sucessfully took out the attacker. One defender I read on died as well.

[Spookey]

Going for the gun!

I agree that the best defense against a firearm (when you can see it coming and prepare) is a firearm! However, if you are carrying concealed and do not see the attacker coming then you are stuck...reaching for your gun may allow time for you to BE SHOT! While a total lack of action may allow you to be SHOT!
If you believe that your life is in danger then you may have to go for the gun. You should first take control of the muzzle (barrel) to ensure that you are not in the line of fire...you should simultaneously attack with furosiousness, whether striking the body, gouging the eyes, or stabbing the attacker, or if capable SHOOT HIM...however, a quick draw situation is rarely productive...control his muzzle, and ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the basic principle of unarmed defense against a firearm!
Secondly, in regards to the physical dynamics of firearms and the use of such knowledge to prevent them from being fireable you must understand the multiple dynamics of firearms in general .ie revolver (in either single or double action stage), semiauto (1911, DAO, ect.) and be able to clearly see the mechanisms (hammer, safety, slide release) which may be difficult due to stress or lighting!
Finally, understand that one of two things normally happen when you grab someones firearm and simultaneously attack.
1.They will attempt to avoid the attack (covering) which removes their focus from their weapon making it removable from their control
2. They will force retention on the firearm and thus not protect themself from the simultaneous attack!
The totality of these techniques require 3 main components:
1. Timing the grab
2. Speed of application (muzzle control + attack)
3. An unserpassed level of aggression

Be Safe!
Oh Do Kwan

[Thai Bri]

However, I deal with a gun threat by having one of my own.

I can't see how this would work, unless you walk around all the time with it drawn......

Or do you just ask the nice chap to give you a moment to get youres out before pulling his li'l trigger?