What's wrong with karate?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

cause all KungFu Schools and KungFu Instructors here in Iloilo, Philippines are all Fake and frequently defeated by Karate and Tae Kwon Do, the more i see them enter unto the ring or even sparring kungfu are always defeated and i always here people besides me that kungfu is bullshit..... their kungfu is bullshit.....

my instructor said that you cannot make Fake KungFu in the heart of Manila, Philippines cause a sudden Challenged Letter wrap in stone for the NgoChoKun Schools to invade you.... (strick in kungfu only)

I must be getting this the wrong way but aren't you contadicting here
All other schhols are fake but your teacher would prevent or challenge fake schools therewith causing the fake schools to stop
Well they mustn't have been impressed by the challenge

How come if Alex Co brought Ngo cho kun to your country, yours is the only KF school that isn't fake? where have all the other Ngo cho kun/Wu zu quan people gone?

What makes your teacher more valid then the others, please do not say "because they lose from other stylist", this isn't an argument, they at least are willing to test under bad conditions (according to yourself, rules that limit them)

I would say to you enter these competitions, but not to win but to end in a draw, seeing you claim non of your effective attacks can score, you should at least be capable to prevent a karateka from scoring, with it you would prove your kung fu's superior defending capabilities
You could still do your forearm pounding and to my knowledge there aren't any handtechniques to the body that are prohibited

Only thing is, if your karate oponent manages to land 1 reverse punch you lose face majorly but that won't happen if we are to believe you so what do you have to lose?

[Thai Bri]

He would land 22 blows to their 2.

Convinced?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

He would land 22 blows to their 2.

Convinced?

No he can't because he would be disqualiified, he can only defend but seeing the superiority of his art he should be able to keep any karateka from hitting him once

So he can enter a match just to force a draw, if he can't do that......

[Beginner]

cause all KungFu Schools and KungFu Instructors here in Iloilo, Philippines are all Fake and frequently defeated by Karate and Tae Kwon Do, the more i see them enter unto the ring or even sparring kungfu are always defeated and i always here people besides me that kungfu is bullshit..... their kungfu is bullshit.....

my instructor said that you cannot make Fake KungFu in the heart of Manila, Philippines cause a sudden Challenged Letter wrap in stone for the NgoChoKun Schools to invade you.... (strick in kungfu only)

my instructor also said you can make Commercialized KungFu Schools too in Manila but not a Fake School (its a disgrace)

but there's truely a very big difference comparing a Non-Commercialized to a Commercialized KungFu Schools.

What makes you so sure that the Karateka's fighting in the ring w/ your so-called Fake Kung Fu are not members of a so-called McDojo? On that premise, fake vs. fake & Kung Fu lost. Well, it may have a been a slip of your tongue but if in the lower levels (fake practitioners - if they are in fact "fake") Kung Fu lost, what makes you so sure that the same will not happen among "true" Karateka's and "true" Kung Fu practitioners?

Fact is, we will never truly know as times have changed and the "true" practitioners do not fight against each other anymore to prove their art is better than others. What I see now from a lot of Guro's, Instructors, Masters I have met so far here in the US is an attitude of wanting to learn from other systems and styles to help their own systems & styles to adapt to present day self-defense needs - much like my Sensei back in the Philippines.

[darrianation]

the only way for me to fix Karate is to give up and switch learning to KungFu, depends upon your potential if what kind of KungFu Category will you study.........

Oh dah’ what an original answer you have there shedick, why didn’t I think of that?

You can't back up any of your claims so shut up! Besides the problems of Karate are the same problems of KF (and any other traditional MA).

You seem to think its all about the techniques, this just shows your ignorance because it’s not about the techniques it’s about how the training has no realism involved physically and especially on a psychological level. All traditional arts are restrictive and rely on conformity of their students and instructors.

At least karate has what I call economy of motion where is KF has excessive motion. Many attempts by legitimate KF experts have tried and failed to prove KF in combat but so has a lot of others this just shows us that no art is perfect Oh… I mean except yours obviously.

Shedick you make big claims; if you claimed that you could stick your hand into a hot roaring fire and you would get burned I would not ask for you to prove it because that follows reason, logic and experience. However if you claimed you could stick your hand into that same fire without a hair being singed then I would ask you to prove it because this defies logic, reason, and experience.

Shedick all your arguments defy logic and reasoning, so either prove what you claim or shut up and go to hell!

[Toudiyama[NL]]

He Darr, you did Wado too didn't you?

Suhari, doesn't that teach us to be nonconformist?

[Hikage]

He's just a stupid troll so try and ignore him. I'm considdering putting him on my ignore button, only problem is if he insults me i cant retailiate because i wont know.

H2H, don't fall into the trap that I so often do. If someone insults us, it is not a necessity that we retaliate. Rather, it looks better on our character and worse on his if we don't. Don't let your pride kill you because you'll just make both of you look stupid.

I'm relatively young too and we young bucks suffer with the cancer called pride. I don't know about you, but it permiates every pore of my being. I can tell you, with assured honesty, that 100% of all arguments with my wife have stemed from or were augmented by my obsessive pride.

I like you (not like that, you wouldn't be so lucky). You seem to have your head screwed up much straighter than I did when I was 16. Do yourself a favor, ignore him.

-Hikage

[MADDOG]

This is why I started a thread on asking what are the demographics of those that participate on this forum.

Ed Barton

[darrianation]

He Darr, you did Wado too didn't you?

Suhari, doesn't that teach us to be nonconformist?

Toudiyama I probably rail on karate to much. I have learned allot of good things from karate. I did wado for about 6 years (5 years and 10 months) and out of the styles (karate styles) I have done Wado rocks in comparison.

I am just so sick and tired of the politics and seeing these 4th and 5th degree black belts that really don't know what the hell they are talking about. I see em' and hear them all the time passing mis information and spouting this and that and they have no real clue of the battlefield.

I finally got mad last night at a 4th Dan (sometimes instructor) for saying crap about self-defense and non traditionalists. I finally had enough and called him the carpet for this and told him he was full of shit and told him I would show him.

We sparred but I didn't use karate I didn't do what he expected instead I shot in with a double leg take down and took him down and as I rolled him to his stomach I pulled my safety knife (he didn't know I had it) and slit his throat (not for real of course).

I exclaimed this is real life, this is what I mean when I say real. He has 20 years in karate and I have 20 years in the MAs, the difference between us is I have experience and I think outside the box and all he knows is what he has been taught and he's been taught by a long line of instructors who like himself don't know shit about real combat. And they all look down their noses at anyone who doesn't think, train, or act like they do!

I am done with these jerk offs. I told my instructor I’ll come and spar with the class every Tuesdays and Thursdays but I am not performing floor work katas or any other thing I don’t feel like doing. He has agreed. So for now on I’ll come for the last hour of class and spar but that’s it.

I stopped teaching their SD class because they are to restrictive and don’t want me to teach effective techniques but the techniques that are only fit for the girl scouts. It's really a shame but this has been my experiance in the 10 years I have done karate.

[darrianation]

This is why I started a thread on asking what are the demographics of those that participate on this forum.

Ed Barton

I am not exactly sure what you mean by demographics (I know what the word means). Are you asking what styles?

I have have spent 10 years in karate, but I have also studied many other martial arts ranging from Thai, FMA, Korean, Western, and etc.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Dar:

I now see that the fact that my trainings didn't look like the traditional trainintg anymore, probably was because of my contact with non traditional arts or at least woth other arts

Often I didn't do the old up and down walking basics but after the warmup I went to the kickingshield excercises ( this extents the warming up a bit) then often to SD oriented excercises, which involved more grabling than I leaned in Wado but would still use the principles of it

It were the student asking for some Kihon, Kata and Kumite, but only when the time for exams came near ( in that club we did those centralized together with judo and ju jitsu 2x a year)

Oh a started out the season in the traditional way just to fresh up their mind after a 6-8 weeks intermission

As to Wado the first thing I noticed when I started training in it was the opening, other styles stepped beck in zenkutsu dachi and gedan barai, Wado steps foreward in a hidari gamae en punch



following is a part from the foreword of Ohtsuka book "Wado ryu Karate" limited edition

Enter into kata, then withdraw from kata

the MA have numerous varieties of kata. Predecessors, over a long period of time, created kata through experience, changes and imagination.

It is obvious that these kata must be trained sufficiently, but one must not be "stuck" on them. One must withdraw from kata to produce forms with NO limit or else it becomes usseless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hestitation to produce countless other forms by training. Essentially, it is a habit - created over long periods of training. Because it is a habit, it comes to life without hestitation - by the subconsious mind. These habits occur without realizing it, so one sometimes does not even notice.

The point to be careful about such habits is that these habits may still emerge in situations where they are inappropriate, or even dangerous, to emerge. It is difficult to rid one's self of such ahbits. "Look at other's mistakes to correct yourself" - an old saying, but how true!

Like an actor who is able to portray different chharacters, martial arts ought to be the same. To not have it happen consiously, but as a matter of habit, yet a habit not so entrenched to cause negative effects - not an easy task

[darrianation]

Dar:

I now see that the fact that my trainings didn't look like the traditional trainintg anymore, probably was because of my contact with non traditional arts or at least woth other arts

Often I didn't do the old up and down walking basics but after the warmup I went to the kickingshield excercises ( this extents the warming up a bit) then often to SD oriented excercises, which involved more grabling than I leaned in Wado but would still use the principles of it

It were the student asking for some Kihon, Kata and Kumite, but only when the time for exams came near ( in that club we did those centralized together with judo and ju jitsu 2x a year)

Oh a started out the season in the traditional way just to fresh up their mind after a 6-8 weeks intermission

As to Wado the first thing I noticed when I started training in it was the opening, other styles stepped beck in zenkutsu dachi and gedan barai, Wado steps foreward in a hidari gamae en punch



following is a part from the foreword of Ohtsuka book "Wado ryu Karate" limited edition

Enter into kata, then withdraw from kata

the MA have numerous varieties of kata. Predecessors, over a long period of time, created kata through experience, changes and imagination.

It is obvious that these kata must be trained sufficiently, but one must not be "stuck" on them. One must withdraw from kata to produce forms with NO limit or else it becomes usseless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hestitation to produce countless other forms by training. Essentially, it is a habit - created over long periods of training. Because it is a habit, it comes to life without hestitation - by the subconsious mind. These habits occur without realizing it, so one sometimes does not even notice.

The point to be careful about such habits is that these habits may still emerge in situations where they are inappropriate, or even dangerous, to emerge. It is difficult to rid one's self of such ahbits. "Look at other's mistakes to correct yourself" - an old saying, but how true!

Like an actor who is able to portray different chharacters, martial arts ought to be the same. To not have it happen consiously, but as a matter of habit, yet a habit not so entrenched to cause negative effects - not an easy task

First let me say this is a good post. I respect your knowledge and understanding.

My Wado days (now I really have to reach a long way back) were great and filled with fun. I started when I was twelve and very impressionable. I clung to every word my sensei said. One of the first things I was told was how superior Wado was to all other styles of karate and all other MAs I bought that hook line and sinker. Does this sound like a party line to you or bit like brain washing?

Anyway in the beginner class every one was expected to show up early and warm up on their own. We would begin class by the bowing, kneeling and bowing to the different edifices and instructor. Then we would stretch, floor work marching up and down the floor back and fourth for what seemed for ever. Then kata 3 each of the katas we knew.

Then we would go into the back room where there were four sets of Makiwara boards and we would line up and take turns punching them until our knuckles were bleeding and then we punched them some more. Then we would go back into the main dojo and we did pad work (mostly kicks on kicking shields)

Then we would practice break falls, throws, and a little joint locking. Then we would end with sparring and the bowing out ceremony.

Of course there were variations in these routines but this was generally what we did.

In the advanced class brown and black belts very little kata were done, we would warm up, do the bowing ceremony. We would do floor work, throws, joint locks, and sparring.

I really did not realize the politics involved until much later. My first taste of it came when I began to study MT my Wado instructor really gave me a hard time about it.

The things I like best about wado, and still incorporate to this day are the Wado’s basic principles that were derived from Shinto-Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu: Taisabaki, Nagasu, Inasu, Noru, San-Mi-Ittai, Basiclly these principles are moving away from the line of attack, Twisting the body to avoid a strike, and allowing an attackers momentum to pass while countering. Wado teaches and emphasizes economy of motion which in my believe is one of the corner stones of any self-defense system.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Who was your teacher, Shintani or a student of him?

Makiwarawork in Wado is actually strange but Shintani had a Goju background before he started Wado so that would explain it.

As for the superiority of Wado, it is considered the fastest and/or one of the most scientifical styles by others

we too called the noncontac variant of kyokushin lumberjack karate

My dad, a judo and ju jitsu teacher, told me, even before he started doing karate ( he started that at 50) that Karate is the better SD
Keep in mind we have here a dutch variant of ju jitsu called "nakoni jiu jitsu"
Nakoni being the first initials of the familynames of the founders
Nauwelaars d'age, Koning and Nieuwenhuizen
The style had weak punchingabilities, people would stand strait-up beside a downed oponent to punch him to the face, therefore not realy hitting a finishing blow

Combined with a style like ashihara, I think Wado can kick some ass ( that's what we did for SD)

It was alway a good base to work from for me, it is the reason why I never have problems with a lot of martial arts, even clasical arts like Shindo muso ryu jo jitsu or Iaido

[darrianation]

Who was your teacher, Shintani or a student of him?

Makiwarawork in Wado is actually strange but Shintani had a Goju background before he started Wado so that would explain it.

As for the superiority of Wado, it is considered the fastest and/or one of the most scientifical styles by others

we too called the noncontac variant of kyokushin lumberjack karate

My dad, a judo and ju jitsu teacher, told me, even before he started doing karate ( he started that at 50) that Karate is the better SD
Keep in mind we have here a dutch variant of ju jitsu called "nakoni jiu jitsu"
Nakoni being the first initials of the familynames of the founders
Nauwelaars d'age, Koning and Nieuwenhuizen
The style had weak punchingabilities, people would stand strait-up beside a downed oponent to punch him to the face, therefore not realy hitting a finishing blow

Combined with a style like ashihara, I think Wado can kick some ass ( that's what we did for SD)

It was alway a good base to work from for me, it is the reason why I never have problems with a lot of martial arts, even clasical arts like Shindo muso ryu jo jitsu or Iaido

Yea Makiwara boards. In my school the harder stuff was emphasized in the color belts. My instructor (I am not sure of his lineage) (I didn’t know anything about lineage in those days but I still don’t think lineage is all that important, if you can teach, then you can teach) but he was a 2nd dan in Goju and a 3rd dan in Wado. He didn’t teach the softer and suppler things until much later.

Honestly I think I left before my real learning began. I was just starting to learn the principles of softness and body movement to make attacks miss and my understanding of these more subtle principles hadn’t grown into a full understanding yet.

I had to make a choice between Karate and Muay Thai. Mauy Thai was exciting and new and I really wanted to do full contact in the ring. Karate was getting kinda’ of stale and I felt at the time my learning curve had flattened out. What I didn’t realize was how hard it was to get fights in MT in the early 80’s.

One of the determining factors for me was we went from a gorgeous Dojo with a huge main room and four other rooms, a mirrored room, a bag room with 2 heavy bags, 2 double end bags, 4 makirawa boards and weights (free and cables). We had dressing rooms, a room to warm up in, and a very nice lounge with couches, lazy boy chairs and a TV, with a balcony 2nd floor. We went from that to a dance studio which was plenty big enough but no bags, no weights, and no dressing rooms. It was definitely a step down. Then finally we went to my instructor’s house that he converted into a dojo but of course he still lived there. It was way to small and no equipment and our classes dwindled in size. We went from about 25 full time students to maybe 12 people going to class full time. It was beginning to be a bumber.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Yea Makiwara boards. In my school the harder stuff was emphasized in the color belts. My instructor (I am not sure of his lineage) (I didn’t know anything about lineage in those days but I still don’t think lineage is all that important, if you can teach, then you can teach) but he was a 2nd dan in Goju and a 3rd dan in Wado. He didn’t teach the softer and suppler things until much later.

Honestly I think I left before my real learning began. I was just starting to learn the principles of softness and body movement to make attacks miss and my understanding of these more subtle principles hadn’t grown into a full understanding yet.

I had to make a choice between Karate and Muay Thai. Mauy Thai was exciting and new and I really wanted to do full contact in the ring. Karate was getting kinda’ of stale and I felt at the time my learning curve had flattened out. What I didn’t realize was how hard it was to get fights in MT in the early 80’s.

One of the determining factors for me was we went from a gorgeous Dojo with a huge main room and four other rooms, a mirrored room, a bag room with 2 heavy bags, 2 double end bags, 4 makirawa boards and weights (free and cables). We had dressing rooms, a room to warm up in, and a very nice lounge with couches, lazy boy chairs and a TV, with a balcony 2nd floor. We went from that to a dance studio which was plenty big enough but no bags, no weights, and no dressing rooms. It was definitely a step down. Then finally we went to my instructor’s house that he converted into a dojo but of course he still lived there. It was way to small and no equipment and our classes dwindled in size. We went from about 25 full time students to maybe 12 people going to class full time. It was beginning to be a bumber.

Lineage isn't important butyou aswered my question anyway, the teacher was a 2nd dan goju

you should have lived in the Netherlands in the 80's, you would have had mch more fights in MT

I can immagine you left pitty you feel you might have left just a tad to early

how easy was the switch to MT?