The Essence of Karate

[brokenelbow]

Basically there are 4 categories in martial arts (with a few sub categories or groups of course).

1) Self-defense
2) Professional
3) Sport
4) Self-improvement

You're right but that's the wrong way to look at martial arts and IMO a big problem with TMA, RBSD and sports when it comes to the average person.

My sensei always says that he teaches karate, that's it. To him the 4 things listed along with a few more, are all a part of it that can't be seperated out. You want self-improvement you'll spend a lot of time sparring and maybe pushed to compete. You want self defense or be to a "pro" then you'll spend a lot of time getting into shape, awareness, learning to control yourself and over come your fears by meditating and doing things that look more like a selection course than self defense or combatives. In the end everyone will come out to the same place with close to the same skills. The human body is the same for just about everyone. There are just so many techniques to use and places to hit.

Karate has been broken by catering to peoples wants instead of needs.

So is kata relevant?
1) For self-defense? NO!!!
2) For the pro’? NO!
3) For sport? Only if you are competing in kata competitions.
4) For self-improvement? Possibly.

1) I've used sections of kata for self defense with no problem.
2) See above.
3) Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Shintaiikudo all do kata.
4) A dance class, yoga or pilates are better in that regard.

That's why Evander Holyfield didn't make katas a big part of his training for Tyson, right?

And I doubt he'd credit shadowboxing for his win either. He did condition, sparred against people aping Tysons style and hit things.

SB and kata aren't the same. There is nothing that says you can't break the kata up, change the angles the strike points or anything else in it. You do them a certain way in class to learn them, what you do with them is up to you. I'm not a big fan of kata but I do the ones that I find value in. I also find that rather than being restrictive I can break out of doing the same old thing.

[CKD]

Fransisco Filho stopped doing kata when he started doing k-1 and other competetions. Everyother Karateka in k-1 did the same. I believe that says something. Sorry for being a bit rude but...

[brokenelbow]

No problem with your being rude, some people can help it others can't.
Great, but the majority of karateka in those styles still do kata.

[darrianation]

You're right but that's the wrong way to look at martial arts and IMO a big problem with TMA, RBSD and sports when it comes to the average person.

My sensei always says that he teaches karate, that's it. To him the 4 things listed along with a few more, are all a part of it that can't be seperated out. You want self-improvement you'll spend a lot of time sparring and maybe pushed to compete. You want self defense or be to a "pro" then you'll spend a lot of time getting into shape, awareness, learning to control yourself and over come your fears by meditating and doing things that look more like a selection course than self defense or combatives. In the end everyone will come out to the same place with close to the same skills. The human body is the same for just about everyone. There are just so many techniques to use and places to hit.

Karate has been broken by catering to peoples wants instead of needs.



1) I've used sections of kata for self defense with no problem.
2) See above.
3) Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Shintaiikudo all do kata.
4) A dance class, yoga or pilates are better in that regard.


And I doubt he'd credit shadowboxing for his win either. He did condition, sparred against people aping Tysons style and hit things.

SB and kata aren't the same. There is nothing that says you can't break the kata up, change the angles the strike points or anything else in it. You do them a certain way in class to learn them, what you do with them is up to you. I'm not a big fan of kata but I do the ones that I find value in. I also find that rather than being restrictive I can break out of doing the same old thing.

I will tell you a story that is a bit embarrassing to me. This has to do with neuro-muscle memory and bad habits.

I have trained in karate for many years I started at a young age some 27 years ago, although I still go to karate class every now and then when time permits (only to spar) I do not do kata, floor work, or go to belt promotions. I have also trained in other MAs and I teach RBSD and combatives with defensive firearms as well as tactical knife and stick, and of course empty hand training as well. I do not consider myself karateka.

About two weeks ago my wife startled the hell out of me from behind a door, and what did I do? My lead hand went up into my guard, and my rear hand chambered on my flank just like I was going to throw a reverse punch. Now is there anything wrong with this? If you are a karateka no, oops…. Uh, wait do they teach you to fight from the chambered fist in karate? No! But you train that way don’t you. This is a perfect example of bad habits reinforced over time through improper neuro-muscle conditioning. I have attempted for years to deprogram myself of this, but all attempts have been unsuccessful.

When I fight or spar and using my cognitive brain I fight like a MT guy, a boxer, or a true H2H guy but when I was startled in this particular circumstance and my subconscious brain took over I resorted back to the bad training I have had in karate. You are how you train, once bad habits are formed they are very difficult to break.

I am not saying that karate cannot be used for SD, and of course all MAs have some cross over between the 4 categories I have described, but it doesn’t change the fact that bad habits are bad habits and kata the way they are taught in karate as well as step sparring, bunkai, and floor work all develop bad habits from a true fighting stand point. Fortunately in spite of this some can still defend themselves well. But if your goal was purely SD or developing fighting skills wouldn’t you rather train using proper methods while developing good habits that will last you a lifetime? I would!

[Tom Yum]

I once woke up to find my arms splayed in a muay thai stance and my chin tucked, probably a product of my subcounscious mind.

[brokenelbow]

But you train that way don’t you.

No I don't, some karate styles don't do hikite when punching. I do know those that do but frequent sparring helps keep things straight in the better dojo. You may have to consider that your pulling the hand into hikite has less to do with improper neuro-muscle conditioning and more to do with how you respond to being startled. I wasn't there and I doubt you made a video but you may be overlaying a percieved fault with some karate styles over your reaction.

[darrianation]

Just because you may have had a different experience with karate in your dojo doesn’t mean the majority of the others still teach that way. I have trained in more than one style of karate; I have trained in karate in Colorado, Arizona, California, Florida, and Japan. I have walked through many dojo doors and I can witness that in all of them They did the same hand cocking, the same leaving the arms out and the end of the punch or block, the same over exaggerated movements, the same dead drills, the same cooperative and predictable or pre-determined drills, they had the same gaming, the same tag or dueling style of sparring, and the same bad habit building exercises and or katas. I am not saying everything was exactly the same but I am saying they all developed at least what I consider to bad (improper) habit building training.

So now maybe in your dojo you don’t do this but you are definitely the exception to the rule then.

“I do know those that do but frequent sparring helps keep things straight in the better dojo.” brokenelbow

Sparring in karate has nothing to do with startle or flinch reflexes. Sparring is done with the cognitive brain, and you do not begin sparring from the startle. Startle reflexes can be intentionally trained or it can be developed unintentionally over time through repetitive exercises. Now someone else with the same training might have reacted differently but cocking the arm back is definitely not a natural reflex, even someone with no training at all will not react this way, so it was unintentionally trained in me by bad habit forming drills and exercise over a long period of time.

karate style sparring brings up another can of worms of bad habit forming stuff. I have gotten into this in other threads, to make this shorter than it would be otherwise suffice it to say that tag or dueling style sparring that you see in most styles of karate and in most dojos is another inefficient way of training for SD.

I am not trying to condemn all styles, dojos, or instructors of karate some teach better than others, some styles are better than others, but most still have forms or methods of teaching that develop bad habits. If I was to pick one style that I had respect for it would be kokushin (SP?) karate.

But I was under the impression we were talking about a specific aspect of karate the kata, so at the end of the day you still practice (at least in all the other dojos other than yours of course) kata that develops bad habits. Any SD system that trains in a competitive atmosphere, incorporates cooperative drills and dead drills such as bunkai, step sparring, defenses against pre-determined attacks, and or marches up and down the floor hitting nothing but thin air, that do not incorporate all ranges of fighting from weapons to ground fighting, and perform katas that develop bad habits, plain and simply have a lot of wasteful practices.

Now this is taken from a strictly a self-defense point of view. If you have other goals that’s fine, if you do karate to compete in tournaments, self-improvement, or just for the sheer enjoyment of it that’s a whole other story, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I am also not trying to say that you will not get some SD benefit from your training, Karate the way it is taught in most schools is just not the most efficient way to train for SD. And kata is kata at least the way I have always performed it and seen it performed and it has some value as far as physical attribute development as well as cultural, and historic value but it is still counter-productive as a way of training for self-defense.

[brokenelbow]

OK, I can agree that most karate schools teach that way, but realize no matter what it says on the handouts or sign out front they aren't teaching karate as a combative system. I've always been lucky to find karateka who do karate as a combative system and not an art form to train under and train with. We do kata but it's not very pretty or abstract. Once you see the application of a series of moves, which aren't secret or complicated, the kata start to make sense. Obviously a style can exists just fine without any kata, especially now in the age of print and video. Kata if taught correctly doesn't to any harm and is a good option when training.

[darrianation]

Alright I can also agree that karate can be effective, I do like the fact that it relies on simple easy to use and retain gross motor skilled techniques. However I disagree with much of the way it is trained. My oppinion of how to go about defending yourself is also opposite from what karate teaches. I just don't beleive in standing there or moving around exchanging punches and or kicks.

[brokenelbow]

That's good because neither does karate that isn't watered down. By watered down I mean either the tippy tappy tag kind or the smash and bash kind. Karate is nasty and violent. Karate is about how you hit, how hard you hit and the big ingredient, where you hit. The last has been removed from many karate schools and replaced with ballroom dancing (aka musical kata). I'm not talking dim mak or Dillman magic knockouts but just the high percentage places that might end a fight quicker. These strike points are so very basic, can even be found in Karate-do Kyohan, but I've seen few schools teach these. I do find seminars on the Dillman type pp nonesense though. Why people would by-pass the things that make their art work and pay extra to learn some low yield magic is beyond me.

I'm guessing that if you believe that karate only relies on simple easy to use and retain gross motor skilled techniques then you've missed most of it. Tai sabaki, body conditioning and off balancing to name a few things are essential to karate, especially for street effectiveness. Check out the Enshin karate books for some nice examples of karate.

[darrianation]

Most of my karate training is in Wado, do you now anything about it? Anyway when I say simple to learn easy to use I mean front punch reverse punch, round kick, and etc. it doesn't get much easier than that. Yes, there are some higher concepts and advanced movements that take longer to get but once you've gotten them they are easy to retain. In Wado we use Taisabaki, Nagasu, San-Mi-Ittai all are forms of making the attacks miss by movement or by redirecting. So yes I know about these things.

[sherwinc]

Most of my karate training is in Wado, do you now anything about it? Anyway when I say simple to learn easy to use I mean front punch reverse punch, round kick, and etc. it doesn't get much easier than that. Yes, there are some higher concepts and advanced movements that take longer to get but once you've gotten them they are easy to retain. In Wado we use Taisabaki, Nagasu, San-Mi-Ittai all are forms of making the attacks miss by movement or by redirecting. So yes I know about these things.

We already discuss and proved that your KARATE is no match in MUAYTHAI, are you still not agree with it?

[brokenelbow]

One of the guys I sometimes practice with does Wado. Works well for him and looked good to me. I was wondering if you could explain

My oppinion of how to go about defending yourself is also opposite from what karate teaches. I just don't beleive in standing there or moving around exchanging punches and or kicks.

more. I've been lucky with with my training and I'm always interested in finding out what went right and wrong with others who train in karate.

[darrianation]

From the quote you picked I am guessing you want me to explain more about "My oppinion of how to go about defending yourself is also opposite from what karate teaches. I just don't beleive in standing there or moving around exchanging punches and or kicks".

Or Wado?

[darrianation]

This is my philosophy and my personal tactics. This is based on my 27 years of MA training and especially my training in combatives as well as my real word experiences and observations.

This is going to be long sorry, but I cannot just say what my philosophy is without explaining it because it may not make sense. It may not make sense anyway.

The short answer is I do not believe in dueling or exchanging punches.

Karate teaches dueling and they operate at a very high level of gaming. Gaming is a term we use to describe some of the many inherent flaws in drilling. That is: Predictability, semi predictability or recognizable forms of attack, familiarity with partners, familiarity with the drills, pre-determined attacks/pre-determined defenses, having a pre-determined end, the drill/s are designed in such a way that the defender almost always wins, cooperative partners, dueling, competition between attacker and defender, and of course expectancy.

In karate much of the training and sparring doesn’t really take into account what you are really doing. This maybe hard to understand, but sparring or drilling in karate does not take into account all the variables of human action/reactions especially the psychological aspects. The basic way karate is set up is your opponent punches, you block and counter, then he blocks and counters, and you hit him the stomach and he stops and says hey nice shot, you pat each other on the back and go back to playing tag, oh…. I mean sparring. Street fighting again does not occur this way.

My next big beef is the most important thing of all, when it comes to fighting most Karate instructors fail to teach combat psychology well, nor do they do any adrenal stress conditioning, oh they may pay some lip service to it but usually they just gloss over it or perform poorly designed drills and say its psychology or adrenal development, but at the end of the day 9 out of 10 instructors (probably more) are just full of shit.

While in the military I learned a very important lesson of combat, “when in close proximity of a hostile enemy you need to have to the will and the ability to aggressively close with the enemy. This does a few important things it allows you to bridge the gap before he can figure out what your doing, it surprises and disrupts, it brings to bear a lot of firepower that he may not be set or ready for, it allows you to engage the enemy on your own terms and makes him fight your fight but the most important thing, it messes with his psychology and his resolve.

One of the biggest components in RMAs (Russian martial arts) is psychological intimidation of the enemy. You have to change his thinking from “I Am going to kill you” to “Oh shit I gonna’ be killed”. You break down his mind (will and spirit) and his body will follow.

The idea is to be able to fight and to cause as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time possible regardless of what the other guy is doing. Now karate teaches this with their mouths but the way they train is far from this. The reason I say this is because to do this you cannot be in striking range, because if you are in striking range causing damage to him, well he can be causing damage to you.

So to get more into the meat of this- my observations and experiences as well as many others show that fights break down into a chaotic mess and all your training usually cannot prevent this, so don’t fight it, go with it.

A few things we know about fighting:

1) Fear, stress, and adrenaline effect the way you fight
2) Fights are chaotic and unpredictable
3) Nothing goes as planned, game plans tend to break down quickly even for trained martial artists
4) People can and often times are tougher than you first thought
5) Mental aspects like determination, aggressiveness, and tenacity tend to be the biggest predictor of the outcome of the fight
6) There tends to be a lot more punching (wildly) than another techniques even for trained martial artists (you get caught up in what he is doing and begin to fight his fight)
7) In the efforts to keep from being hit or out of desperation many folks grab on.
8) Clinches, tackles, and etc are common place and this often leads to trips, slips, and falls
9) Things that work well in the dojo don’t work so well in the street
10) You never fight as well in the street as you do in training

It’s not pretty!


Anyway there are other things as well but to move this along; my thoughts are to limit as much as the negative aspects as possible, don’t even let them enter into the equation. My belief is I am not fighting unless I absolutely have to and it better be for a very important reason so I am going to get this guy quickly. My philosophy is this:

1) Weapons beats empty hands, guns, knife (other edged weapons), sick/club (other impact weapons), nasty key chain weapons, OC sprays, improvised weapons, and etc.
2) Close aggressively with the enemy! move into close range, get inside. Use palm strikes hammer fists as a bridge. The priority targets once inside his guard are the eyes and throat
3) Clinch and control
4) Finnish

I have taken a good long look at how people fight. I have looked at natural physical and psychological reactions to violence. From this I have decided there are better ways or more efficient ways of going about this. From the clinch you can do many very nasty things- Eye gouges and thumb drives, web hands to the throat, head buts, bite- his face (or shoulder, neck, ear, nose hands/arms, and etc), shave his shins and foot stomp, knee torques/stomp, short hammers to nose, eye sockets, temples, and base of spine, elbows, knees, neck cranks, gunts (elbows/ulna block to his biceps/brachial plexus), forearm shivers, shoulder checks, hip checks, traps (windmilling), Osoto gari or other throws, many assortments of takedowns and trips, go behinds for naked chokes, etc, and etc.

The other great thing about this is all this can be done regardless of what he is doing. He can be punching furiously, he can be trying to retreat, he can be trying to take you down, he can be crying for his mama and none of this will effect what you are doing. You own the fight, you have taken him from “I Am going to kill you” to “Oh shit I might be killed” You own him at this point because you have disrupted his psychology and diminished his resolve.

This also works for smaller people because you neutralize your enemies punching power
By getting inside. His punches now lack power from this range and hooks are easy to block, also by moving around and pushing his head down throwing him side to side, diagonally, pushing him back then pulling him forward again even if he does land a blow or two it will lack any damaging power. This can give a smaller guy great advantage. I once used this to defeat a guy that looked just like a middle linebacker in the NFL. This guy was huge, he looked like he could bench press a house but I beat him with eye gouges, elbows, knees, and head buts from the clinch.

I don’t say it works because I used it once successfully, I say It works because I have used successfully a few times as well many others have used it successfully. It doesn’t rely on fine motor skills, laser targeting, or precision timing; it works because it puts you in control, it distracts him, disorientates him, unbalances him and messes with his psyche. My experience in using this method of fighting is sheer panic, on the part of the bad guy!

Clinching fighting:
1) Puts you in control
2) Takes control of the fight from him
3) Allows you to use extremely nasty techniques too cause damage while limiting his ability to damage you
4) Turns his psychology against him
5) Allows you to take him down and or escape

This works the three keys of mortal combat:

1) Distract
2) Disorientate
3) Unbalance

Then destroy!

Now this might not work for everyone but it’s good to learn because even if you don’t want to clinch him, well he just might (and statistics say he will) grab or clinch you anyway. However clinch fighting will work for most folks. Now size does matter, if there is a large size disparity like a 140 pounder who is attacked by a 240 pounder there are no guarantees that any techniques or tactics will work in this case. For this I strongly emphasize carrying weapons and learning to use them. Also there maybe times when clinch fighting is not a desirable position to be in such as if you see he has a knife in his hand then its time to make distance. However, and believe me I have worked this over and over against trained knife guys and untrained knife guys, if you have the clinch and control and you keep him off balance and you are chain fighting (using damaging techniques in rapid succession) he cannot pull his knife from his belt/pocket or use it. He may be able to but it is very difficult to do so and unlikely unless there is a pause or a break. Do not pause or break, if there is a break then begin with the punch and re-engage as quickly as possible. This also works well against multiples, you can manuver them through the crowd keeping him between you and th e other BGs, and you can exchange from one guy to the next while you work your way to the door and hopefully freedom. It can be used in open spaces or confined spaces. The clinch is very versatile.

To meet the requirement of the striking range I am Muay Thai orientated with a strong emphasis in boxing with a heavy dose of clinching (as well as small numbers of techniques from other places). But like I said before I do not believe in dueling (exchanging punches) this expends a lot of energy and is by far less efficient and a bigger stronger guy will eat you for lunch. Clinch fighting as well as ground fighting (I only recommend ground fighting when there is no other choice or you are sure he is alone) needs to be an integral part of your training regime. My groundwork comes from practical aspects of Judo, wrestling, and submission wresting. My weapons comes from combative firearms, military and combative tactical knife, and Arnis. You need to able to fight in all ranges because sometimes you don’t pick the range, the range picks you, but that doesn’t mean all ranges are a desirable place to be.

Also willingness to aggressively close with enemy needs to be paramount in training. Karate preaches some of this stuff (lip service mostly) but they really don’t teach it in to many schools (meaning gaming and tag sparring is contradictory to aggressively closing).

Peace!