The Essence of Karate

[brokenelbow]

Thanks Darr. I always wonder why many people have a bad experience with karate (generic term) but I know people who use various styles and swear by it with their lives. And all have trained with old school traditional sensei. I agree with your statement about dueling and gaming but that is more a component of modern karate. The guys that I train with teach that when in a self defense situation if the encounter hits 10 seconds you've been going too long. They get real creative when you do. This approach got me tossed out of a school that believed in sparring as a self esteem building excercise.

All of the techniques you've described are basic karate techniques. The philosophy you're using are the same that we use. We practice outside a lot, more so in bad weather. One difference is while we work inside we prefer to get outside and even better to the back. We know people clinch as a reaction we just don't want to get caught up in one for long. I'm thinking that we agree more than disagree. I've been fortunate to train with guys who have a lot of real world experience. Sad that most karate people come in contact with is so bad. It's also why they won't open a formal school. They don't want to deal with being baby sitters or having a parent turn white seeing two or three guys trying to make short work of each other.

[darrianation]

I agree karate can be devastating, but unfortunately commercialism has destroyed it for the most part. There only remains a few bastions where it is still brutal and effective. However I have yet to wonder into any of them as of yet.

So, don't get me wrong I have no complaints about the techniques of karate, just the methods of how they trained and especially the lack of combat orientation. I am sure this has a lot to do with it being assimilated into society as a childhood exercise for school children in Japan/Okinawa and its introduction into sport, as well as commercialism. But I think a lot of people who aren't naive and are serious about self-protection like myself tend to steer away from it for these reasons.

[HtTKar]

I'm really going to get it for this one.
many people in this thread seem to think that shadow boxing teaches self-defense, or how to fight. I dont think this could be further from the truth. Hitting a puching bag does not really teach you anything. I think most people need to be taught how to punch and kick properly. They can then refine that technique, and that is all kata is about; teaching a technique. You can refine that however you want.
6 year old kids get punching bags with sand bottoms that bounce back when hit. (I hope you know what I'm talking about). But these do not teach a child how to hit or punch effectively, and neither does a speedbag, headbag, or heavybag.
For someone to learn how to hit effectively, they need an experienced teacher, and plenty of full contact.
Any Martial art is devastating, but without full contact it is just gymnastics.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Darr, I think it is time for a book(let) from your hand
Aimed at teacher to give them way to improve the SD part of their art

PDF format would be nice

[sherwinc]

I agree karate can be devastating, but unfortunately commercialism has destroyed it for the most part. There only remains a few bastions where it is still brutal and effective.

So, if Karate is a non-commercialized.... will a Non-commercialized Karate be able to beat a MuayThai???????

i think MuayThai will win.....

cause since past and now, if you compare karate versus muaythai, all boxing forms of martial arts will destroy your all kinds of Karate, worst is the tae kwon do.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

So, if Karate is a non-commercialized.... will a Non-commercialized Karate be able to beat a MuayThai???????

i think MuayThai will win.....

cause since past and now, if you compare karate versus muaythai, all boxing forms of martial arts will destroy your all kinds of Karate, worst is the tae kwon do.

K1 vs Kyokushin?? not all forms of Karate will be destroyed by MT/kickboxing
But Dar isn't talking about MA competition, he is talking about SD training and how to make that more realistic, MT lacks those qualities just as much as other MA do, only a minute few Arts have this as part of their system ( so not as part of the teachers curriculum)

Especially when the rules of the "Game" (tripple H?) determine the way you train, it will be flawed for SD
When the rules of your game determine that attacking the back isn't allowed ( as in MT and boxing) then you might be inclined not to do so, if your rules determine NO contact, you will be inclined to pull your punches

I keep saying that no MA is suitable for SD without any altercations

[darrianation]

So, if Karate is a non-commercialized.... will a Non-commercialized Karate be able to beat a MuayThai???????

i think MuayThai will win.....

cause since past and now, if you compare karate versus muaythai, all boxing forms of martial arts will destroy your all kinds of Karate, worst is the tae kwon do.

I think it's up to the individual not the art. Both have advantages and disadvantages. However under MT rules I like MT to win most often, change the rules to point fighting then I pick Karate to win most often. Street fighting I think the fight goes to the most determined and mentally tough fighter, or the luckiest fighter. But if the MT clinches its all over for the karate guy.

[darrianation]

I'm really going to get it for this one.
many people in this thread seem to think that shadow boxing teaches self-defense, or how to fight. I dont think this could be further from the truth. Hitting a puching bag does not really teach you anything. I think most people need to be taught how to punch and kick properly. They can then refine that technique, and that is all kata is about; teaching a technique. You can refine that however you want.
6 year old kids get punching bags with sand bottoms that bounce back when hit. (I hope you know what I'm talking about). But these do not teach a child how to hit or punch effectively, and neither does a speedbag, headbag, or heavybag.
For someone to learn how to hit effectively, they need an experienced teacher, and plenty of full contact.
Any Martial art is devastating, but without full contact it is just gymnastics.

I don’t ever remember anyone one this forum or any boxing coaches, or MT coaches ever telling me that Shadow boxing will train me to fight. What shadow boxing does is allows you to build strength and stamina as well as proper body mechanics for techniques and combinations of techniques in a free and dynamic atmosphere. This does help you to be a better fighter as far as the technical aspects and the physical development aspects.

Kata on the other hand may give you some of the same physical development aspects as SB but it is done in a confined/restricted format that is conducive to forming bad habits like cocking your arm, leaving punches and blocks out as well as unnatural stop go, and etc. If you think SB cannot develop positive aspects for fighting then Kata must be far worse. The truth of the matter Kata lacks specificity to real fighting and is counter productive because over time all those none specific movements (cocking arm, leaving techniques out at the end, and etc) develop improper neuro-muscle habits.

When it comes to bag work you have to hit stuff. Hitting thin air will not be enough stimulus to keep you moving forward (progressing). There is a definite end to learning and progression there. So you need to hit, hit hard, and hit often. The heavy bag doesn’t hit back but there are many different drills you can do on it that develops power, and conditioning as well as technical skills. You also need to hit stuff that hits back, dynamic pad holders (focus mitts and MT pads) do just that, they move around like a life opponent and they hit back with the pads. This develops speed, timing, offense, defense, strength, power, conditioning, and again strong technical skills. The drills can be changed or altered to premit changes in stimuluis to keep the student progressing. Of course you also need to work against live unpredictable, and uncooperative opponents as well.

[darrianation]

Darr, I think it is time for a book(let) from your hand
Aimed at teacher to give them way to improve the SD part of their art

PDF format would be nice

I have actually done this. I altered my SD curriculum to fit in better with the Karate, meaning instead of boxing style punches I kept the front/reverse punches, instead of the MT round kick I used the karate round kick, and etc. The Dojo owner thinks my stuff is great but his higher ups did not like the fact that it wasn’t Shotokan in spirit. They thought a defense for a lapel grab should be a wrist lock and my idea was to strike the throat or the eyes so the politics got in the way and I finally had enough and stopped teaching SD to the Karate class all together. The Karate instructor likes my stuff and I teach him privately, but I don’t teach it to his students. It’s to bad he feels he has to abide the party line in his classes.

I do have a manual that I wrote and teach from in my classes. As far as putting it up on the internet, I have never thought of doing that, something to think about.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I have actually done this. I altered my SD curriculum to fit in better with the Karate, meaning instead of boxing style punches I kept the front/reverse punches, instead of the MT round kick I used the karate round kick, and etc. The Dojo owner thinks my stuff is great but his higher ups did not like the fact that it wasn’t Shotokan in spirit. They thought a defense for a lapel grab should be a wrist lock and my idea was to strike the throat or the eyes so the politics got in the way and I finally had enough and stopped teaching SD to the Karate class all together. The Karate instructor likes my stuff and I teach him privately, but I don’t teach it to his students. It’s to bad he feels he has to abide the party line in his classes.

I do have a manual that I wrote and teach from in my classes. As far as putting it up on the internet, I have never thought of doing that, something to think about.

My idea of a defence for a lapel grab would be first a strike to the eys or throat then maybe a wristlock or in some way an armbar if you might call it that ( bend am push his elbow up on the inside) but this has to be followed by something, possibly a knee

As for the book(let), if you are prepared to scan, I'm willing to ocr and proofread it and send it back as word or PDF

[darrianation]

My idea of a defence for a lapel grab would be first a strike to the eys or throat then maybe a wristlock or in some way an armbar if you might call it that ( bend am push his elbow up on the inside) but this has to be followed by something, possibly a knee

As for the book(let), if you are prepared to scan, I'm willing to ocr and proofread it and send it back as word or PDF

Unfortunately we have a guy here who is a 3rd BB and the head of the association in this part of the state. He considers himself a SD expert. He is not the head instructor though but the head instructor feels he has to pretty much abide by what he says.
His rebuttal to my defenses is that it will land the defender in jail, and not appropriate for younger students. Hmmm... I think teaching wrist locks to 8 year olds is even worse, at least fingers to the eye would work far more than a wrist lock. C’mon a child doing a wristlock on a full grown adult male? It will never work in a million years.


Of course with the kids I concentrate mostly on awareness and prevention issues than on physical techniques. I teach How to respond to strangers asking for help, Tactical positioning- like were to stand and what to do if a car slows near, how to place the bicycle between the kid and the adult stranger, how to climb under cars to get away, what to do if you are pulled into a car, the difference between strangers and persons of authority, how to get other adults attention, etc, and etc. He just teaches physical techniques, and worthless ones at that. Its to political. It really leaves a bitter taste, to see people taught with such disregard to reality.

[Thai Bri]

Why have a defence against a lapel grab? What harm will the lapel grab do. It is the guy himself who is the threat.

I'm not being pedantic here. All these "if he does that I do this" philosophy is impossible to apply in a real go. Basically you need a small amount of high percentage techniques to deal with each and every threat.

So, lapel grab? Blast him into obscurity.

Wrist grab? Blast him into obscurity.

Hair grab?........

You get the idea.....

ps - Or just do a Kata. That will save you every time.

[Tom Yum]

Why have a defence against a lapel grab? What harm will the lapel grab do. It is the guy himself who is the threat.

I'm not being pedantic here. All these "if he does that I do this" philosophy is impossible to apply in a real go. Basically you need a small amount of high percentage techniques to deal with each and every threat.

So, lapel grab? Blast him into obscurity.

Wrist grab? Blast him into obscurity.

Hair grab?........

You get the idea.....

ps - Or just do a Kata. That will save you every time.

I don't know about the UK, but you could get into legal trouble if you nail some guy who simply tries to grab hold of your wrist or lapel here in the US. No doubt, a hard strike will work in all those situations.

I think judo, aikido and other arts are really good at restraining and de-escalation. They work on suprise and balance. If you ask some dude to voluntarily grab your lapel, he knows you do aikido and he's really strong, you won't be able to pull him off or will have to hit him to loosen up a little...by then it will be too late.

In a situation where you are being abducted by someone who attempts to shove you hard or pull you, these kinds of techniques are awesome because they are based purely on physics and anatomy. Simple example, if someone pushes you, pull them off balance - vice versa. Judoka set up throws and sweeps this way all the time.

In an assault type situation, I think they aren't too effective (except judo) and that's just my opinion.

[Tom Yum]

If you're life is in danger, hell yeah.

If some drunken, idiotic friend of yours or an accquiantance of your uncle bob gets outta hand, I'd rather use caution.

[darrianation]

Why have a defence against a lapel grab? What harm will the lapel grab do. It is the guy himself who is the threat.

I'm not being pedantic here. All these "if he does that I do this" philosophy is impossible to apply in a real go. Basically you need a small amount of high percentage techniques to deal with each and every threat.

So, lapel grab? Blast him into obscurity.

Wrist grab? Blast him into obscurity.

Hair grab?........

You get the idea.....

ps - Or just do a Kata. That will save you every time.

My point exactly, f*** the defenses and just go offensive and hit sombody. But there are times to a bit more suttle too. But I'd rather take their head off.