Critical Distance and Types of Fighters

[jcmack]

If ambushed I wouldn't put together a hasty plan unless I had to coordinate other people. If I were alone I would simply be aware and respond. I don't use plans in battle. I just respond. I don't accept the fact that I will be stabbed or cut. I don't expect anything in particular to happen. A plan implies forthought. I use my awareness as opposed to concious forthought.

[Hardball]

We need more input/opinions from the defend.net community on this topic; not just Mine.

Bowing Out

Where is Tom Yum, Iron Palm, Jerry lombell, others?

[Mad_Mally]

If ambushed I wouldn't put together a hasty plan unless I had to coordinate other people. If I were alone I would simply be aware and respond. I don't use plans in battle. I just respond. I don't accept the fact that I will be stabbed or cut. I don't expect anything in particular to happen. A plan implies forthought. I use my awareness as opposed to concious forthought.

I agree, but some people on this site think that useing you awarness is a plan. My position is if it is a plan then it is a plan that lends itself to greater utility then any other set plan.

[HtTKar]

In most circumstances you know you're going to be attacked. It's very rare that its unprovoked. You do look around for footing. You do look at your opponent and check for structural weaknesses. You do look around for people that might back him up, and ways to get out. How often are you jumped unexpectedly without seeing the attack coming?
The point of planning is to have at least one advantage. Maybe you see something you can hit him with...keep that in mind. Its like chess where you plan 6-10 moves ahead. The game may never go that way, but you think ahead of your opponent. Usually thinking ahead is what will save your back.
Mind like the water takes as its foundation and excercises the practice of advantage. "Act so that your opponent cannot understand your mind."
True it's a different story when you start fighting. Here you control your mind, and worry less about your body. You have a couple minutes/seconds to plan ahead before it hits the fan. What else are you going to do with that time? Put your guards up and wait to respond? You dont just spur of the moment start throwing down and then start looking around for an exit. Remember sometimes you have to plan your escape route.

but what if your charger is 6'6 with long arms and an incredible sprint

This is where you plan your exit strategy, and get out of there before you have to "think in the moment"

[jcmack]

If you are aware of your surroundings you don't need to look for exits. You are aware of them. Awareness is a knowledge of your surroundings. I may know the exits of an area, but I haven't looked around for them specifically. I disagree with you. Also, if you really know a fights coming, why not avoid it. I have never walked into a situation knowing that a fight is coming. Even when it was my job to control rowdy people, I never expected a fight to come. When you expect something to happen, you can often times subconciously cause it to happen. Also, the time before a fight occurs, instead of spending that time formulating a strategy, maybe you should try to defuse the situation. A fight should never be expected unless you are a marked man. Fighting is not like chess. You shouldn't be trying to think 6-10 moves ahead of your opponent. You should just react to his one move. That is all it takes if you have trained properly. Part of proper training means you don't need to have a battle plan to suceed in combat. In fact a plan hinders your ability to react to ever changing battle conditions.

Training to do this can take a long time. There is also a faster way to know what I'm saying although it is more dangerous. Why don't you get into a fight with multiple people. There are so many variables when fighting multiple people, it is almost impossible to plan. That is why people you are crazy when you tell them you have fought many people at once and won. But in reality, by expecting nothing and being able to react to attacks, fighting many people is the same as fighting one. A punch is a punch. If you are really aware and properly prepared, it won't matter how many people you are fighting. This is a hard concept to understand if you can't do it. Keep training though. It will eventually come to you.

[Hardball]

This Actually sounds like the "BLOCKER STRATEGY". Eveything the blocker does is dependent on what the enemy does. Everything is a counter or a block thus it's called the Blocker strategy. Don't get me wrong the Blocker strategy is sound and it works. But it may not be the best stategy to employ against a multiple attack situation. {from now on refered to in this thread as a "BANK"}

Banks are hard to defend against but anyone who can fight off a bank has GUTS. HOW MANY UFC MATCHES HAVE YOU SEEN PORTRAYING A BANK? In the Book of 5 Rings, Mushashi talks about banks. He basically says fight off your bankers in the order that they attack. You may actually have the advantage because no one expects you to fight back in a bank thus you have the element of suprise and possible superior skill and fitness level.

[Hikage]

Banks (to use your term) are a whole nother beast. There are a million theories on what works and what won't. Ironically, your usage of Musashi's theory is actually a variation on the blocker philo. Take what comes to you and work with it. Normally, I am a blocker. Most MA's are born with some inate ability in one aspect of the art. Mine is to counter. Typically, I lie in wait for the dude to make a mistake then capitalize.

However, in a bank situation I use the entirely different situatio (and also a knife fight). I will go after the guy. Instead of allowing them orchestrate their movements and dictate the order of the fight, I chose for them. I'm not about to wait around to see what their strategy is. I have a lot of confidence in my abilities, but when you're talking 4 - 5 guys, you're in trouble.

Furthermore, I must agree here with JCMack. The key is to know your surroundings. HtTKar is correct in saying that most times you will know when the fight is coming. It is those few instances when you don't see it that worry me. Even the best fighters can fall victim to a cheap shot. Having constant situational awareness and the ability to make hasty strategies is essential. Best is to have a fall-back default strategy that you know you can use sucessfully until you have won, or have time to make a better plan.

To say that you don't have a plan worries me. Perhaps our ideas on "plans" are different, but to me not having a plan means you are just blindly throwing punches in hopes that something works. This is little different from the untrained street brawler.

For me, I have a number of "BASIC" plans that I would use in different scenarios. The overall umbrella plan is first of all to understand that no scenario is ever as it happens in the dojo. Secondly, I have to be able to mix, match, and create with those basic plans in order for me and my family and friends to survive during combat. I'm not about anything fancy or pretty. I'm not above grabbing genitals, biting, slapping, crying, or raking toe nails. I'm about winning.

-Hikage

Where is Tom Yum, Iron Palm, Jerry lombell, others?

What are we, chopped liver?

[jcmack]

In fighting, there is an entire upper level of ideas and feelings that few people get. I can walk into a fighting situation without a plan. I have trained that way. I don't blindly throw punches. I simply move where I need to move to to have my effect. I don't consider myself a blocker since moving where I need to move sometimes entails moving through another person. In this way, fighting multiple people is the same as fighting one. I used to train and think the way you all do. Through the evolution of my fighting skills and more importantly awareness skills, as well as transitional work, kinetic balance, and fluidity of movement, my attitudes as well as overall fighting ability have evolved. I'm not trying to convince you of anything you aren't ready to believe, but as your training continues to evolve so will your understanding of what I am saying. Until then I will just plant a seed in your minds to think about as you train. You may disagree or agree with me. I will end my discussion on this topic here unless anyone wishes to hear more.
Happy training

[Hardball]

Ironically, your usage of Musashi's theory is actually a variation on the blocker philo. Take what comes to you and work with it. Normally, I am a blocker.

The BLOCKER'S strategy is sound and effective. I also, like the strategy of the CHARGER. Backwards runner and elusive runner primarily refer to matches or contest in the ring as opposed to street situations and skirmishes. I like to think that I use evasion as opposed to running.
The most effective strategy is the fighter who can adapt and become any type of fighter as deemed necessary by the situation.

Bowing Out

[Hikage]

In fighting, there is an entire upper level of ideas and feelings that few people get. I can walk into a fighting situation without a plan. I have trained that way. I don't blindly throw punches. I simply move where I need to move to to have my effect. I don't consider myself a blocker since moving where I need to move sometimes entails moving through another person. In this way, fighting multiple people is the same as fighting one. I used to train and think the way you all do. Through the evolution of my fighting skills and more importantly awareness skills, as well as transitional work, kinetic balance, and fluidity of movement, my attitudes as well as overall fighting ability have evolved. I'm not trying to convince you of anything you aren't ready to believe, but as your training continues to evolve so will your understanding of what I am saying. Until then I will just plant a seed in your minds to think about as you train. You may disagree or agree with me. I will end my discussion on this topic here unless anyone wishes to hear more.
Happy training

Ignorance wears the mask of arrogance.

-Hikage

[HtTKar]

The BLOCKER'S strategy is sound and effective.

True. But there is a problem with this. Waiting to counter, or waiting for an oppening puts you in a defensive mindset. Of course you have to block, and counter. But your main goal should be offensive. To stop your opponents attack by taking the offensive, and following up on his weaknesses. You cant wait for a counter, but if one is present you exploit it. Otherwise, you might see your opponents weakness, but be too slow to capitolize on it.

Also, the time before a fight occurs, instead of spending that time formulating a strategy, maybe you should try to defuse the situation.

Attempting to diffuse a situation is a strategy.

Also, if you really know a fights coming, why not avoid it.

If I know that a fight is coming then obviously it is unavoidable. Otherwise I am just trying to make predictions.

How can you speak of how evolved your thinking is compared to ours, when you have never been in a situation where a fight was inevitable? There's a difference between sparring in a dojo, doing crowd control, and being in the wrong place/wrong time when some stupid idiot wants to beat the crap out of you. You say fighting multiple people is the same as fighting one...how many times do war generals enter a conflict without a stategy? Perhaps our definition of the terminology just differs.

I will end my discussion on this topic here unless anyone wishes to hear more.

I await further enlightenment.

[jcmack]

Believe what you will Hikage, it changes nothing.

War generals must coordinate other soldiers. This is different.

I've been in plenty of fights. Some against many people. It was part of my job. Also, I had/have rough friends whom I've had to bail out of trouble before. When you are the best fighter in your circle of friends, you are sometimes put in that position.

I'm only giving you something more to think about during your training.

Expand your minds.

[HtTKar]

War generals must coordinate other soldiers. This is different

This is not different. "The general knows the soldiers".
Just as they have to command their own soldiers, knowing how soldiers are, they are also commanding their opposing soldiers. They move them where they want to. In chess you no only move your peices, you make your opponent move his pieces where you want them. This is the same on an individual scale. You move your opponents to where they are at a disadvantage. It is not just about moving yourself; you are allowing your opponent to move where you want him. The principles are the same.

[Tom Yum]

This Actually sounds like the "BLOCKER STRATEGY". Eveything the blocker does is dependent on what the enemy does. Everything is a counter or a block thus it's called the Blocker strategy. Don't get me wrong the Blocker strategy is sound and it works. But it may not be the best stategy to employ against a multiple attack situation. {from now on refered to in this thread as a "BANK"}

Banks are hard to defend against but anyone who can fight off a bank has GUTS. HOW MANY UFC MATCHES HAVE YOU SEEN PORTRAYING A BANK? In the Book of 5 Rings, Mushashi talks about banks. He basically says fight off your bankers in the order that they attack. You may actually have the advantage because no one expects you to fight back in a bank thus you have the element of suprise and possible superior skill and fitness level.

what's up hardball.

when I train, there's kind of an unspoken rule with my classmates that we need to take and practice hard hits now and then, but it never gets to the point of a KO (maybe ~70%) - the closest I've been is where I got a standing KO from a helluva boxer about 3 inches shorter and 30 lbs heavier; legs allmost died on me and my vision/consciousness slipped for about 3 secs; for the most part its fast sparring with enough contact to test your limits, if you know what I mean.

So, the action is usually 70% offense and 30% defense.

[shuyun]

start a conversation about "Critical Distance and Types of Fighters.

First: types of fighters. I'm going to list the types I know of and I would like to hear from the martial arts community; Anything that you would like to add:

My answer for most situations is a pre emptive strike. Take them out first before they take you out. But even defensively you can always think offense. Like punching/kicking the punch/kick, (i like punching shins when offered a front kick) or hurting with your block. But to oblige the hpothetical situations:

1. Charger

either redirection of the center of gravity (someone tried to do a flying tackle from behind me once. he fell on the floor back first with an improvised hip throw) or brace your self while trying to hit him too. this uses his force against him too. if i ram my fist up your face, it hurts more if your ram your face up my fist too. of course target is selective possibly with minor evasion and a whole lot of timing

2. Blocker

grapple and throw or overwhelm the blocks with strikes. In some styles of FMA blocking is too passive as a defense. the Lightning arnis style meets a block with a non perpendicular strike. Still a strike but not against the oppopnent's strength. if he covers up try to break the limb that's covering it is a body part to anyway.

breaking techniques (when available to the fighter) become useful here.

or draw a strike by dropping your guard.

3. Backwards Runner

if he does this too much, i open up to draw a strike. but if he's intent in attacking he won't stay running for long. I can wait.

but while the opponent is running backwards he is in no position to launch an attack. overwhelming with forward pressure also works.

4. Elusive Runner

disengage and draw an attack then lock him up.

5. Grappler

i focus on the non-grappled limb and pummel him with it. i have limited grappling skills but in the street i preffer to strike even on the ground. Doing the guard and crossing the guard for a ground and pound does not happen all that much in the street. But i prefer to keep striking a grappler. i can do very tight punches even in a grappling situation. grappled wrists can end in an elbow smash from me. On the ground, fighting dirty is always an option for me. headbutt, bite, scraping his face on the floor...whatever.

6. Kicking Specialist

close in. kicks cant do much when you're in grappling range. or a pre emptive low side kick to the knee is also quite distracting.

7. Street Brawler

anything goes. my kind of opponent.

i agree with the strategy part that you are trying to espouse. Yes JKD people we think like watter too. Hardball is not recommending a preset fight plan that when he does this we do this...blah blah blah. But rather it talks about thinking on your feet.

there is a time to be thoughtless but there is time to be a thinker as well or else we get to easily lured in. In being thoughtless we can also be trapped in out internal subconscious patterns. Sometimes we have to consciuosly break them as well.

And also we should have an idea of what techniques will and will not work based on physical assessment of the opponent. first i don't try to grapple a person whose forearms won't even fit my grasp. i try to be evasive when someone seems to be able to hit harder and so on. This can be assesed by stance, not necessarilly horse, bow and arrow, cat or whatever stance. Rather is he stable? is he mobile? is he lightfooted?

this will not require analytic thought but simply recognition based on visual acuity (the same split second thinking used in a gun range when shooting bad guys only).

We don't think in fights true but we don't act stupid either. Thoughtlessness is not mindlessness.