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  • #46
    Originally posted by BoarSpear
    "dont judge the whole world by your own shitty standards" ~MaaJak~

    "some can, some wont, some decide no one can" ~Boarspear~
    From the way he said "little buggers" I assumed it was a children's class- but even if it is adults it doesn't change my thoughts. Hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe some where in Missouri there really is a room full of people with beautiful 30 and 40 minute horse stances. I'm not gullible though, I'd have to see it before I believed it. I'd love to see it too, I really do appreciate it when I see someone that has taken the time to cultivate exceptional traditional stances. One way or the other I'm not going to get into an internet pissing contest over it.

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    • #47
      Wish I could say I did much to cultivate the stance. (I'm not a fan of the horse stance and it is mostly outlawed in the upper ranks for anything other than static training.)

      The one person who held the longest was about 17. He went on to enter the military.

      While I was impressed that they did it. I was somewhat annoyed because it was not what I was counting on. At the end I also wouldn't call the stances perfect. their legs were shaking something terrible and I had to watch to make sure they didn't cheat.

      This was probably 5 years ago now. Same guy got is cup broken in half during a sparring session and was blinded for about 10 minutes. That was a new on for me too.

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      • #48
        They could not have done that, i just don't beleive you, they must have freakishly strong legs and thier kicks must look like lightening, unless they are able to sink further enough so that they are in what we call a cadle position (where eventually your hips lock and its not really the muscles that are keeping you up but the lock itself) even so it still wears away at your muscles so i really can't see that happening, sorry eX

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        • #49
          you all don't have to believe it, makes no difference to me. I saw it.

          Just from messing around with it, I think it's more a state of mind that strength. However these students were particularly well conditioned.

          I did learn I could cause students to fail by talking about how difficult it was to do it. If I told them to think of themselves like stone they held out longer.

          I was talking about a class of 45 students roughly. So only a few were able to do it. Most dropped out between 3-6 minutes. The last ones were competing against eachother. Both of the students at the end refused to let the other one win.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
            Wish I could say I did much to cultivate the stance. (I'm not a fan of the horse stance and it is mostly outlawed in the upper ranks for anything other than static training.)

            The one person who held the longest was about 17. He went on to enter the military.

            While I was impressed that they did it. I was somewhat annoyed because it was not what I was counting on. At the end I also wouldn't call the stances perfect. their legs were shaking something terrible and I had to watch to make sure they didn't cheat.

            This was probably 5 years ago now. Same guy got is cup broken in half during a sparring session and was blinded for about 10 minutes. That was a new on for me too.

            Understand that the style of kung fu I practice (Hung Chuan) is known for low traditional stances the same way TKD is known for kicking. We start every class (and I do mean EVERY class) with a timed horse stance. All of our basic drills and forms are performed from low stances. In order to progress in rank one non-negotiable requirement is being able to hold a good horse for a set amount of time. To get out of the beginner level that everyone starts at you have to hold horse for 2 minutes. Just about no one can do it when they first come to the school. For that matter not many people are even flexible enough to get into a real horse stance when they first sign up. It usually takes a new student several months to develope the stamina and flexibility to hold the stance properly for the whole 2 minutes. I remember the first time I made it all the way to 3 minutes my legs shook so hard that I literally fell over when I tried to stand up. My legs were so exhausted that I couldn't stand up for a moment or two. Some of my senior class mates can hold it for more than 5 minutes, but they've all been training this way for years. If they've been practicing horse regularly and can only manage between 5 and 10 minutes how can I believe that someone who doesn't practice it regularly can do several times that? I'm going to attach two pics. of people doing horse stance. One is a good solid horse, low enough that the guys knees are bent at pretty much a right angle. Holding that position for 30 minutes is a herculean task, and is possible only for a true virtuoso. There's no way I believe that someone who doesn't practice that stance regularly could make it for even 10 minutes (which is a huge accomplishment) let alone 30. The other pic. (the file name is TKD Horse stance, which is weird becuase the site I found it on belonged to a karate school ) shows a position that some people call horse stance even though it's so high that I don't think it has anything in common with what we practice at our school. I can assure you that anyone that stood that high in my school would get an extensive lecture about cheating from my teacher. It's so high and comfortable that I think I would get bored of standing in one place before I actually got exhausted.
            Attached Files

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            • #51
              Interesting we don't have much trouble, (especially children) holding horse stances. We spend much more time conditioning than actually holding stances. I didn't say they never practiced them. It is muscular endurance not strength. Also generally the longer they go they creep up a bit. Not as high as the stance called TKD middle stance, Which was high for TKD standards. But they often were a bit above the first picture. We would correct them. These were not high rank students only middle ranks.

              I have personally held a horse stance over 10 minutes. That was a long time ago and many injuries ago. I could not do it now, I do not believe anyway.

              anyway, it's is neither here nor there. There is a audio interview with Grandmaster H.U. Lee where he talks of holding a horse stance for 20 minutes when he was young. In the interview he talks about how his instructor was very happy and proud of them. I Believe the audio is called my Taekwondo Journey. I still have many of these sets of tapes but I believe they are currently out of production.

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              • #52
                Anyway, I'm not really looking to convince you that it occurred. It is enough for me to know it.

                I have seen lots of things that I did not think were possible. I once saw a student jump as high as a fully raised wavemaster. He was a small little guy and was incredible. A second student got close to doing it, and ended up with a stress fracture of the spine and ended up in a back brace for several weeks. If I had not seen it I would not believe it still not sure how they managed it.

                I saw someone jump up and walk around after blowing their knee. Much to my dismay.

                I have a friend that can throw jump spin kicks and kick basketball goals. (the net part only)

                I saw a guy throw a kick and tear the entire bottom skin off of his heal of the base leg. It had to be surgically reattatched.

                All of these things I would not have considered possible, but they have occurred.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
                  I have personally held a horse stance over 10 minutes. That was a long time ago and many injuries ago. I could not do it now, I do not believe anyway.

                  anyway, it's is neither here nor there. There is a audio interview with Grandmaster H.U. Lee where he talks of holding a horse stance for 20 minutes when he was young. In the interview he talks about how his instructor was very happy and proud of them. I Believe the audio is called my Taekwondo Journey. I still have many of these sets of tapes but I believe they are currently out of production.

                  This sounds like it's in line with my experience. I'm willing to accept you at face value as an experienced MA instructor even though I only know you on the 'net, and I can well believe that a professional in his prime could hold horse for 10 minutes. I'm not familiar with GM H.U. Lee but I'm certainly willing to believe that if he's one of the finest MAs in his chosen style he might well have achieved 20 minutes. That's an awe-inspiring level of ability. I've been pretty careful not to call anyone a liar, it's just that my school stresses stances and I spend too much time on them NOT to start asking questions when I hear people talking about holding them for 10, 20, and 30 minutes. Sure that sort of thing is possible, but only for an extremely dedicated and gifted practitioner. As I said earlier, I'd love to see anyone that's got a genuine 10 minute horse demonstrate their forms. If they train that hard they must be good enough that it would be worth my while to shut up and watch.

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                  • #54
                    The horse stance is a traditional training form of kung fu right? Is it true that they used to actually fight in those low stances, and thus they needed that kind of training?

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                    • #55
                      Just for fun...

                      If you've never tried a horse stance before, look at the example of a good one that Lu posted and give it a shot. I'd never tried it myself until moments ago, but i can definately see how it would be a useful tool to improve endurance and the power of kicks. I'm in relatively good shape and my legs were burning after a minute! i could maybe go for 2 min. but that's if i go until i collapse.
                      I may add this to my morning stretches and see how good i can get. Are there any elements to the stance that aren't obvious from the picture Sagacious posted? like do you tense certain muscles in the torso or arms? How bout breathing?

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                      • #56
                        -try to keep a steady breathing pattern.
                        - don't think about the horse stance let your mind wonder and you should be able to do it for a lot longer.
                        -What we do instead is put our arms out forwards so your training you arms at the same time, or even above our heads.
                        -Try to keep your feet facing fowards, theres a big difference depending on how your feet are angled.
                        -Keep the back as straight as possible, it relaxes the intensitiy if you begin to lean forward, however it is inevitable that you can't maintain your back completely straight.
                        -Do not go over the top though it can be suprisingly damaging.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by The_Judo_Jibboo
                          If you've never tried a horse stance before, look at the example of a good one that Lu posted and give it a shot. I'd never tried it myself until moments ago, but i can definately see how it would be a useful tool to improve endurance and the power of kicks.
                          Puahaha... We've got too many gong fools in here. The only thing horse stance training will enhance is your ability to hold "horse stance" longer. Horse stance has NEVER improved anyone's fighting ability.

                          Case in point. I used to do Choy Li Fut... Low, powerful stances were the order of the day. Legend has it that Choy Li fighters developed their stances on fishing boats.... Anyway, you're supposed be able to transition into other stances (slant horse stance, cat stance, crossed-leg stance, etc..) to initiate quick movements. The movements are not economical for fighting, because the time it takes you to do them, you're better off using basic boxing footwork.

                          But back to the subject... The sooner you get the idea that horse stance improves kicking out of your head, the better. You improve your kicking power by "kicking" a heavy bag.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by pstevens
                            Puahaha... We've got too many gong fools in here. The only thing horse stance training will enhance is your ability to hold "horse stance" longer. Horse stance has NEVER improved anyone's fighting ability.

                            Case in point. I used to do Choy Li Fut... Low, powerful stances were the order of the day. Legend has it that Choy Li fighters developed their stances on fishing boats.... Anyway, you're supposed be able to transition into other stances (slant horse stance, cat stance, crossed-leg stance, etc..) to initiate quick movements. The movements are not economical for fighting, because the time it takes you to do them, you're better off using basic boxing footwork.

                            But back to the subject... The sooner you get the idea that horse stance improves kicking out of your head, the better. You improve your kicking power by "kicking" a heavy bag.
                            just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it NEVER has any practical uses. holding a position, short of standing straight and laying down, develops muscle and therefore has SOME use.
                            different strokes for different people.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by kljohnson
                              just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it NEVER has any practical uses. holding a position, short of standing straight and laying down, develops muscle and therefore has SOME use.
                              different strokes for different people.
                              Oh, I'm sure it has some use... Like if you were waiting at the mall all day while your girlfriend did her shopping. But my response, if you knew how to read, was in regards to developing kicking power. Holding a static stance doesn't develop kicking power. You develop kicking power by simply, would you believe it, "kicking."

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by The_Judo_Jibboo
                                If you've never tried a horse stance before, look at the example of a good one that Lu posted and give it a shot. I'd never tried it myself until moments ago, but i can definately see how it would be a useful tool to improve endurance and the power of kicks. I'm in relatively good shape and my legs were burning after a minute! i could maybe go for 2 min. but that's if i go until i collapse.
                                I may add this to my morning stretches and see how good i can get. Are there any elements to the stance that aren't obvious from the picture Sagacious posted? like do you tense certain muscles in the torso or arms? How bout breathing?
                                It's a great addition to your stretching/conditioning. Horse is actually just one of six stances, all of which work your legs in different ways, so if you like it you might want to take a closer look at all six. Kuk Sool Won made some good points, but I will add a word of caution. If you do it properly it's a very safe way to train your legs but if you do it incorrectly you can put unnecessary stress on your knees, and over time it can cause problems. If you're going to start doing it regularly it might be best to have your stance checked by someone who knows just to be sure.


                                @ pstevens: I agree that the way to get powerful kicks is to practice kicking (it's amazing how far common sense can get you ) but if you don't think the six stances are making your legs stronger you must not have put much effort into them. Take a look at the cat stance picture below; there is no weight at all in the front foot which means that the back leg is supporting all of the body's weight. That pic. is pretty good but I've seen people that can get even lower. This trains your legs to master your body weight.
                                Attached Files

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