Karate Useless?

[Tai Chi Fighter]

I practice Karate. The Eugue Ryu Style of Karate. It is very battle oriented(atleast where I train)and we have full contact sparring every class. it is very fun. I know for a fact that Karate can be very effective.

[Aikiguy]

Most traditional arts (not all but most) train like they have for thousands of years with no evolution. If you took TKD and applied aliveness to it and evolved the art it would no longer resemble TKD...it would resemble what MMA looks like today.

In a way, I think they have evolved, but only in the sense that some aspects - such as realistic sparring - have been de-emphasized. (Especially in this country, since in many cases, learning MA is more of a recreation than a necessity. We're allowed that luxury.) As a result, the art itself loses the elements that make it effective, since it's no longer "battle tested" by those who get their advanced degrees in the system. As generations go by, the situation gets worse, as bad / dangerous practices are taught - albeit with the best of intentions - as gospel and tradition. De-evolution ... worse than stagnation!

I do agree that many have not evolved to adapt to other MA styles and ways of thinking. Aikido, for example, still doesn't incorporate striking or ground work. I asked about it over the years (convinced that my ikkyo wasn't about to do squat against someone who really wanted to do me in), and was told that it "wasn't aikido" if we used strikes or got tied up with someone on the ground. It was against the philosophy.

Though if it ever did ... I think we'd see something like a Hapkido / BJJ mix in the end. That would be fun to see.

[Berserk001]

(meaning you just hit and retract before your knuckles are driving through your gloves)
Full contact and full resistive training/sparring is not what thesee people want, even though it is more practical in real life
On top of that most MT training is match fighting oriented not SD oriented at all

Yes you're right cause I'm one ot the few in my dojo who practice punches by using the makiwara

[JkD187]

Are instructors / practitioners of other styles beginning to step up and apply the same principles of aliveness to their art? That 1% that does could really help the other 99% ...

If aliveness were consistently used in karate ... or TKD ... or aikido ... how much do you think they would change? Would the training simply be different or would the art completely take a different direction?

Sorry for not responding sooner ive been busy.That is a good question.....in my honest opinion i believe traditional arts dont train with aliveness is because of the word tradition.Most traditional arts(not all but most) train like they have for thousands of years with no evolution.If you took TKD and applied aliveness to it and evolved the art it would no longer resemble TKD...it would resemble what MMA looks like today.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

MT might be better for Fighting but shure as he not for selfdefence
Most of the people that started Karate for SD reassons didn't like to get hit at all not even semi contact or touch skin, (meaning you just hit and retract before your knuckles are driving through your gloves)
Full contact and full resistive training/sparring is not what thesee people want, even though it is more practical in real life
On top of that most MT training is match fighting oriented not SD oriented at all

[Berserk001]

Just because Muay Thai is better than Karate doesn't mean Karate doesn't "work". People need to stop this kind of reasoning that just because MT is stronger than something, that somethign doesn't work.

Is that your opinion? cause I've fight several MT figthers and I kick their asses and I only practice karate and a little of kempo.

[Aikiguy]

Do you know why only a "few" "arts" have made it to the UFC ... because few "arts" work under full resistance. Karate can be effective ... in fact it can be very effective....if trained properly using progressive resistance and full contact sparring...utilizing timing energy and motion (Aliveness). 99% of Karate schools however do not train this way ... about 99% of all Muay Thai do train this way which is why people choose Muay Thai over Karate. ...

Are instructors / practitioners of other styles beginning to step up and apply the same principles of aliveness to their art? That 1% that does could really help the other 99% ...

If aliveness were consistently used in karate ... or TKD ... or aikido ... how much do you think they would change? Would the training simply be different or would the art completely take a different direction?

[Mastah]

Just because Muay Thai is better than Karate doesn't mean Karate doesn't "work". People need to stop this kind of reasoning that just because MT is stronger than something, that somethign doesn't work.

[JkD187]

Oh. and Aikiguy?

Next time, try knowing what you are talking about before you blast something you have absolutely no knowledge on. ALL martial arts were originially developed for self defense/combat. Perhaps you should get some history lessons.

I am getting fed up with the attitude "if it isn't in UFC, it sucks". Only a few styles have made it in MMA. The logic these people are using states that then all of the styles not in MMA must suck. How many MA's does that exclude? I suppose about hundreds of them...

Do you know why only a "few" "arts" have made it to the UFC....because few "arts" work under full resistance.Karate can be effective.....in fact it can be very effective....if trained properly using progressive resistance and full contact sparring...utalizing timing energy and motion.(Aliveness) 99% of Karate schools however do not train this way....about 99% of all Muay Thai do train this way which is why people choose Muay Thai over Karate.If you have the time to go out to a Karate school that trains Alive...thats great good luck finding one.

[Aikiguy]

Oh. and Aikiguy?

Next time, try knowing what you are talking about before you blast something you have absolutely no knowledge on. ALL martial arts were originially developed for self defense/combat. Perhaps you should get some history lessons.

I am getting fed up with the attitude "if it isn't in UFC, it sucks". Only a few styles have made it in MMA. The logic these people are using states that then all of the styles not in MMA must suck. How many MA's does that exclude? I suppose about hundreds of them...

... when did I say any of this? Quote me. When did I "blast" TMA and say that UFC is the be all and end all? It's not. I am emphasizing the importance of realistic training (or as realistic as you can make it), and its ability to make any art you practice work. Read my comments before completely misquoting me.

Maybe if you read aseepish's latest comment about JKD concepts ... that's what I have been trying to say and he's a little more eloquent than I am.

[Mastah]

Oh. and Aikiguy?

Next time, try knowing what you are talking about before you blast something you have absolutely no knowledge on. ALL martial arts were originially developed for self defense/combat. Perhaps you should get some history lessons.

I am getting fed up with the attitude "if it isn't in UFC, it sucks". Only a few styles have made it in MMA. The logic these people are using states that then all of the styles not in MMA must suck. How many MA's does that exclude? I suppose about hundreds of them...

[Mastah]

Aikiguy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about so let's just skip over his retarded comments. I guess he is another one of those people who think he can take on every single traditional martial artist. Good luck with that, buddy.

[medic06]

Another problem is that arts such as Aikido, Hapkido, and traditional Jujutsu have techniques that are TOO DANGEROUS to practice safely against a fully resisting opponent. How can you safely practice a full-force eye-jab against a resisting opponent? And if you can't practice it, how can you be sure of it working in a self-defense situation?

That's like saying guns and knives are totally useless because you can't go around shooting and stabing people

[medic06]

Karate is not useless. The biggest problem with Karate is that most people do not train hard enough.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

[QUOTE=aseepish]Throwing punches in the air while someone counts to ten in Chinese/Japanese/Korean is "dead" training.[/QUOOTE]

That's what you start with, in some styles even standing in ready stance ( shoulderwidth), I would very often skip this and the traditional walking up and down and in stead do something like:

Shadowboxing, moving around, visualizing an opponent is "alive".

But that's porobably because I also did Savate and MT/Kickboxing(dutch style)

Pulling off a "move" against an opponent who has thrown an attack and then freezes (even if it was a full speed, full power attack) is dead.

Pulling off a move against a moving, semi-resisting opponent is alive, especially if you gradually reduce the controlled aspects of the drill until it is sparring.

I see it as the first step that continues with semi resisting to end up with full resisting.
Problem is a lot of trad karate schools get stuck at the first level and see that as a goal in itself ( exams) and not as a means to, as a step towards another goal

Katas - dead.

Working combinations against a trainer using focus mits/pads - alive (if done properly)

Kata in itself is dead, kata as an acompaniment to bunkai and ohyo is far from dead, problem here is for most japanese styles there were only the Kata, the bunkai has been made up after that, in some Okinawan Karate, the original meaning of the combinations in the KAta weren't lost and in fact the forms are only a way of being able to train the combos on your own
These combos, though pre-arranged, when done against a semi or full ressistive opponents, can be "nearly" alive

Notice - I said NOTHING about BJJ, MT, the UFC, or MMA.
If you train with aliveness, it doesn't matter what style you practice, you can be effective. The problem is that the rigidity inherent in many TMAs doesn't permit altering of training methods. That's why they are called traditional. Another problem is that arts such as Aikido, Hapkido, and traditional Jujutsu have techniques that are TOO DANGEROUS to practice safely against a fully resisting opponent. How can you safely practice a full-force eye-jab against a resisting opponent? And if you can't practice it, how can you be sure of it working in a self-defense situation?

A bit contradictive here, you agree a eye-jab is dangerous but if some-one pulls it 2 inch in front of your eyes, you don't know if it would have hurt you in a real situation?
As long as you don't rely soley on eye-jab like techniques, it should not be much of a problem
Think of this if they are difficult to pull off, why are they prohibited in MMA?

As for people always mentioning Kyokushin, I'm sorry people but besides full contact sparring, they do the rest as mentioned above, standing basics, pre-arranged kumite with non resistive opponents, kata with rediculous reverse enginered bunkai, the works
Some Okinawan styles might not do FC sparring but the rest the do as I described ( marching up and down the Dojo is a japanese thing) so in my opinion these would be better suited for SD

PS I have done japanes Wado Karate so am not trying to promote my style