"ninjas"

[koto_ryu]

The yamabushi (ninja) did not begin to exist until ~700ad. It wasn't until probably late 1500s that yamabushi became warriors...ninja as we think of them today.

From what I recall, ninja were not actual yamabushi, they just often impersonated them to get by checkpoints unmolested.

[LoneWolf1]

Ninja can be anyone it's not like they wore ninja suits. Jubei Yagyu was thought to be a ninja even though he was samurai because he worked for the shogunate. A ninja is really the same as a spy, a ninja is just the japanese fuedal version of it.

[koto_ryu]

Ninja can be anyone it's not like they wore ninja suits. Jubei Yagyu was thought to be a ninja even though he was samurai because he worked for the shogunate. A ninja is really the same as a spy, a ninja is just the japanese fuedal version of it.

They were more of a Shugendo following however, and though some ninjutsu ryuha were influenced by Shugendo, it was more of a Ninpo lifestyle.

[sojobow]

They were more of a Shugendo following however, and though some ninjutsu ryuha were influenced by Shugendo, it was more of a Ninpo lifestyle.

I've been trying to find out exactly what the Shugendo, Sohei and Yamabushi taught to the people of Japan in the years 950 to 1000 a.d.. Being of Chinese origin, the Yamabushi may have taught Sword arts. If so, the Yamabushi would have taught them techniques using a straight sword. Arguements are that Ninja never used straight swords. Every straight sword found (excavated) in the region has been since defined as belonging to the temple guards of the Yamabushi and Shugendo (just can't give it to the Ninja). It just seems logical that if the Yamabushi used the Chokuto type straight swords, their students must have used the same. They have even excavated straight swords looking exactly like the Ninja-to in China (although those swords also had a ring on the butt end). But the straight blade, square hand guard etc are there to be seen. Why would a Ninja have used a curved blade Katana when Katana's of that era were much longer in order to fight from horse back. When the Samurai started fighting on foot after 1100 ad, they shortened the blade length of the Katana. The Ninja didn't fight on horseback and didn't use that long curved Katana. But they argue that all Ninja were actually first Samurai. I don't believe this though. First Ninja were not Samurai. Samurai actually didn't like the people and profession of the Ninja. No honor in sneaking up on people.

but the main question is: what did the Chinese immagrants teach these men that became "Ninja?"

[LoneWolf1]

Honor to a samurai was only a principle. Many would not loose there life for it, the same way people today would rather survive than die for honor. If it came down to it any and almost every samurai would most likely do what they have to. One example of this is when Musashi defeated a rival samurai who was using a kusarigama, he defeated the man with a shuriken. Even though this is not honourable Musashi saw that he was at a clear disadvantage and did what he had to survive. Besides what good is honor when your dead.

[sojobow]

It's actually supposedly related to An Ch'i, though none of it came from Korea. China has had a heavy influence on ninjutsu throughout the years, many of the strategies, some of the strikes, and even firework construction plans the ninja used are very Chinese.

From what I can see, the Japanese may have mixed up the Ninpo and Ninja arts with some Chinese and Samurai arts. Like you take a pure Ninja fighting attitude and mix it with footwork of the Koto and Gyokko-ryû (nothing personal). Or you take a pure Ninjutsu Ryu and completely disregard its teaching scrolls because the original Ryu was of Chinese origin. This would kind of keep us mixed up as to which part is related to the Ninja and which part is related to the Samurai and which part is related to either or neither.

The sulsa's pretty old as well, from what I know of them. Iga/Koga ryuha are just the most well-documented, having worked closely with the government for so long. There are many many other ryuha that we know of, and probably many more we have no clue about.

There was also a people the Japanese relocated to the northern most island of Japan. Like the American "trail of tears" for the Indian movement from Georgia to Oklahoma in 1835 +/-. These "hairy" people of Japan may also have some historical link to the Ninja. Looking also at the Eta and Hinin. But Japan will not own up to these "low" people. Makes it hard to find out just who the Ninja/Shinobi were. Dead now so it might not really matter. The disappearance of the Ninja into the "secret service" of the government says volumns. Take the swords from the Samurai but employ the Ninja tells me that the Ninja and the Samurai were not one and the same. Never did believe the ninja wore a top knot.

[LoneWolf1]

I think the Anui may of had something to do with the making of the ninja arts.They could have since they were mainly a hunter/gather society and things such as using stealth were common place. And I'm sure they also employed guerilla tactics, ambushes, traps ect. There's no real way to know how, when or where the ninja arts originated because not much,if any, authentic documentation exists. And ninja arts,like most, japanese arts have roots in chinese, korean , and maybe anui cultures. Even the more recent "pure" ninja arts take from different ryuah. They take a little Ito ryu swordmanship, some kung fu strikes some chi na thows/ grappling add some stealth walking and climbing and finally add a few dirty "homemade" tricks. Now serving, one large plate of ninjutsu.

[sojobow]

....................add a few dirty "homemade" tricks. Now serving, one large plate of ninjutsu.

Thats hillarious. "one large plate of ninjutsu." Made my day. But true. Anyway. Who would pay their monthly training fees, buy all this martial arts equipment, run all these miles, lift all these weight and take all these butt whippings just to learn sabatoge, spy techniques, map making, food poisioning, psyops and how to get the shogun home without fighting? All the Ninja did was devise war tactics. This fighting stuff is something maybe just for modern income cause I ain't paying for classroom book stuff on how to how to operate a war college or playing war games. someone told me that when a real fight was in order, the Ninja sent the Samurai to do battle while the Ninja stood back and guided traffic. Really, are there Ninja ryu that only teach throwing shuriken? The only weapon they use is throwing stars. There are other "Ninjutsu" Ryu that have no "fighting" scrolls. just war tactics-how to set fire to the gates stuff. Naturally, no students either. But when you put all these Ryu and mixed up styles together, its one extremely good "large plate of ninjutsu." I call it Ninjitsu though. When you throw all these myths in the pot, what you really get is the most comprehensive form of martial arts out there. No one fights like these modern, made-for-today Ninjitsu. But make sure you don't call yourself a Ninja. Even your classmate laugh at that one. And don't tell others that what you practice is "ninjitsu/Ninjutsu." Just say "I going to work out." (carry a gun, knife, sword, chains, ropes, bokkens, escrima sticks and a walking Kane in your bag - hidden away).

[koto_ryu]

Every straight sword found (excavated) in the region has been since defined as belonging to the temple guards of the Yamabushi and Shugendo (just can't give it to the Ninja). It just seems logical that if the Yamabushi used the Chokuto type straight swords, their students must have used the same.

That was the old way of forging in Japan until they learned how to use the curvature of the blade to their advantage, hence everyone used them back in the day before they refined their sword making process.

The Ninja didn't fight on horseback and didn't use that long curved Katana.

Actually, yes they did on both accounts. Ninja often fought on the battlefield side by side the samurai, and many were in fact samurai themselves.

First Ninja were not Samurai.

Hattori Hanzo, one of the most famous ninja of his day, was in fact both a samurai and a ninja.

Samurai actually didn't like the people and profession of the Ninja.

Maybe so, but they still used them effectively and often. Every daimyo who had over 10,000 koku to his name could legally have his own shinobi.

but the main question is: what did the Chinese immagrants teach these men that became "Ninja?"

Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and An Ch'i, for starters

[koto_ryu]

From what I can see, the Japanese may have mixed up the Ninpo and Ninja arts with some Chinese and Samurai arts.

The bugei skills were actually designed to conceal the ninja juhakkei according to Togakure ryu kuden, but there's a combination of it all together. Many of the bugei and ninja skills are similar, and there is a lot of Chinese influence in the history of ninjutsu itself (Ninpo seems to be loosely based off of Taoism in some aspects).

Take the swords from the Samurai but employ the Ninja tells me that the Ninja and the Samurai were not one and the same. Never did believe the ninja wore a top knot.

The samurai still worked for the government however, as did the ninja who were not allowed to carry swords either. That was during the modernization of Japan (ever see The Last Samurai? Not a bad example.). Some ninja did have top knots, whether because they were samurai themselves (e.g. Hattori Hanzo) or they were impersonating samurai. Best to do some research before making an assumption

[Broadsword2004]

You sure some ninja were also samurai? From what I read, the samurai fiercely hated the ninja and despised their ways of waging war.

Then again, I also read that all that stuff about samurai loving honor soooo much and blah blah was also B.S. and that really samurai were bullies, so maybe I'm wrong.

That's what these forums are for I guess (education).

[koto_ryu]

You sure some ninja were also samurai? From what I read, the samurai fiercely hated the ninja and despised their ways of waging war.

Then again, I also read that all that stuff about samurai loving honor soooo much and blah blah was also B.S. and that really samurai were bullies, so maybe I'm wrong.

That's what these forums are for I guess (education).

Read the good history books, such as Stephen Turnbull, or really get into the old ones, such as the Basenshukai.

[sojobow]

Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and An Ch'i, for starters

Interesting reply. A concern I have is that two groups were primarily the catalyst for the creation and evolution of the Ninja being the Yamabushi and the Shugendo. The question again is what did they teach these Japanese. One subject could have described as teaching the Japanese what is condensed in Sun Tzu's Art of War as the subject matter of Sun Tzu was a War Art then taught and developed by a few individuals along with Sun Tzu. Add to this certain weapons (straight swords, thrown knives and stars, a different Bow).

Maybe a better question would be: What were these Japanese people taught as far back as 900 ad?. Note sure if Gyokko and Koto Ryu existed at that time.

[koto_ryu]

Interesting reply. A concern I have is that two groups were primarily the catalyst for the creation and evolution of the Ninja being the Yamabushi and the Shugendo. The question again is what did they teach these Japanese. One subject could have described as teaching the Japanese what is condensed in Sun Tzu's Art of War as the subject matter of Sun Tzu was a War Art then taught and developed by a few individuals along with Sun Tzu. Add to this certain weapons (straight swords, thrown knives and stars, a different Bow).

Shugendo is actually connected with the creation of Togakure Ryu as well, but like the straight swords I mentioned, that was mostly due to forging differences back in the day than what was used around the 13th century. It's just the integration of cultures that influence each other that caused the two to merge.

Maybe a better question would be: What were these Japanese people taught as far back as 900 ad?. Note sure if Gyokko and Koto Ryu existed at that time.

Not those arts by their actual names, but during the T'ang Dynasty is where the two evolved from and eventually came over to Japan during that era.

[BryanS]

if you want to know the truth watch the last samurai with tom cruise