Ju-Jitsu

[Uke]

Hi Uke, Thanks for your post.

Just FYI I am living in London, not America.

So what would you suggest to be the best means of self defence?

I am currently training at the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Gym in BJJ, Muay Thai and I am going to start Judo soon. I think that these styles are helpful because they all have a focus on sparring which is essential to becoming an effective fighter (something that i lacked when training Kung Fu).

Personally, I would like to train in something that addresses how to face multiple opponents, weapons etc; things you will encounter on the street. I would also like to do something that has a lot of standing joint manipulation and locks rather than all on the floor as in BJJ. Are there any styles that are basically BJJ but standing?

Thanks.

Dan_The_Man, you first have to figure out what it is you want to do.

Do you want to be a competitor?
Or do you want to learn street self defense?
They are two very different animals.

To steal a quote that Stabby used recently, "You could study martial arts for years and have no concept of self defense".

It seems that you are already operating under the misconception that sparring is necessary to become an effective self defense practitioner as opposed to a competition fighter. That is definitely false. Sparring is for sport, like karate, judo, BJJ, boxing, muay thai, kick boxing, tae kwon do, etc. Sparring involves developing habits which become great instincts for the ring, but awful instincts for the street. (Read above to see more about what I'm talking about.)

One of the fathers of modern self defense gave the blueprint for what to look for, Dan_The_Man:

1. Never take a fighting stance. Pretend to yield. Then attack suddenly without warning.

2. Never go to the ground.

3. A man's legs are his foundation. Take the foundation out from under him and he cannot stand to fight.

4. An assailant's arms are like the tiller of a ship. Control his arm and you control the direction of his power and his ability to attack.

5. Never place a restraining hold on an attacker without striking him first. Use edge-of-hand, open hand, heel-of-palm strikes to soften him up before attempting a wristlock or armlock.

The man who taught that offered EXACTLY what you asked for: effective stand up grappling in street combat situations. What he taught probably influenced every modern SD school in America and some abroad.

You won't be pulling your punches learning that kind of stuff, nor will you hesitate to act because you won't be conditioned by any rules because there are none in real SD.

If you can find a school that adheres to those five rules, then you've found your school. I'm not sure where Geoff Thompson is based in the UK but I hear a lot of people like what he has to offer in the way of self defense.

Geoff Thompson || Bafta winning writer || Teacher || Martial Artists

Check it out, Dan_The_Man and good luck.

[FLMKane]

Ever noticed how easy it is to headbutt or elbow (what to speak of other techniques) somone when your that close?

SHUT UP! When was the last time you fought a BJJ practittioner you wannabe? You mostly be too busy trying not to get armbared to strike like that.( Note the word mostly though)
And its not like the other guy wont be hitting you.
YouTube - Royce Gracie vs Kimo

Watch that and shut the hell up.

[Ghost]

Uke thats a bit weird what you are saying, almost every self defense system bases its moves or at least some of its moves on thai boxing and BJJ these days and for good reason.
Look at systems like Krav Maga.

Sparring is essential. If you dont spar you dont have any reflex.
its not really worth talking about mate.

[Uke]

Uke thats a bit weird what you are saying, almost every self defense system bases its moves or at least some of its moves on thai boxing and BJJ these days and for good reason.
Look at systems like Krav Maga.

Sparring is essential. If you dont spar you dont have any reflex.
its not really worth talking about mate.

Its not weird. You have just misunderstood what I wrote.

Didn't write that BJJ or MT "moves" are excluded from SD.

Sparring is not essential. Live drills offer the same benefit in regards to reflexes, timing and getting familiar with real type aggression. And with live drills you aren't forced to pull punches, hold back or go easy because the attacker is heavily padded and going all out.

But you are correct, the points about sparring are not worth debating.

[Dan_The_Man]

It seems that you are already operating under the misconception that sparring is necessary to become an effective self defence practitioner as opposed to a competition fighter. That is definitely false.

]

Uke,
I have found your posts very interesting and you are clearly very knowledgeable when it comes to Martial Arts but I can’t help but disagree with this statement.


I think you can look at sparring in two ways:

1. You are practicing for a situation that is defined by rules, therefore you start "developing habits which become great instincts for the ring, but awful instincts for the street" as you put it. With this view, what you learn is restricted and can't be applied to real life confrontations because you are limited by the rules that you have trained. Could you expand on this point?

2. Sparring offers a situation that is close to a real life confrontation in the way that punches are coming in from all directions and you have to deal with them under pressure. By dealing with them (parrying, dodging, countering etc) you are in fact training your reflexes and training your body how to react when a real punch is thrown. Surely this type of drill is essential to becoming an effective fighter in the ring or out?

I don’t think you can so easily dismiss sparring as an effective method to train for street confrontations. Do you think that you will be so conditioned to the rules of Muay Thai or BJJ that when you are fighting for your life you wont be able to fight outside of those rules?

Surely sparring gives you the mechanics and reflexes that are crucial in a fight, rules or not.

May be sparring isn't necessary to becoming a good fighter but surely it is a very useful tool.

Sparring involves developing habits which become great instincts for the ring, but awful instincts for the street

]

Are the two so separate? How can a habit of dodging a flurry and throwing a punch to the face be a great instinct for the ring but an awful instinct for the street? After all if you knock someone out they can’t fight back.

There is no such thing as combat thai boxing, combat boxing or combat BJJ

]
Again, is this totally true? Do boxers have no credibility in a street confrontation? Surely the ability to throw and dodge accurate punches and utilise your range effectively will get you 90% of the way there, even in a street fight. These are qualities that a good boxer holds.

I'm not totally attacking your argument, Uke, but I would like you to expand on your claims on this particular subject.

Thanks.

[Dan_The_Man]

But you are correct, the points about sparring are not worth debating.

I think you posted that whilst I wrote a rather large post on exactly that subject.

[Ghost]

Dan your analysis is correct. Fact is every RSBD contains a good degree of boxing, thai boxing and BJJ. But ideally you would have more than this alone.

Im interested as to what systems Uke is referring to, because im not aware of many RSBD systems that dont spar or use thai boxing and BJJ.

[Dan_The_Man]

RSBD? Sorry, im not familiar with the term

[Ghost]

RSBD? Sorry, im not familiar with the term

Thats ok mate was a typo as well, i meant RBSD. reality based self defense.

[Uke]

Dan your analysis is correct. Fact is every RSBD contains a good degree of boxing, thai boxing and BJJ. But ideally you would have more than this alone.

Im interested as to what systems Uke is referring to, because im not aware of many RSBD systems that dont spar or use thai boxing and BJJ.

About the sparring and muay thai: http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/311503-post76.html

Answer this though:

When you practice RBSD, how do you spar?

Are you throwing low muay thai kicks at each other?

Are you jabbing and moving, while trying to create an opening for a straight right?

Are you doing both in an effort to close the distance to use BJJ to go to the ground?

Are you lunging in trying to use a theep to push your opponent back?

Are you clinching and using knees to hurt your opponent?

None of that is SD. You don't have to agree. It seems that you two have the idea that every RBSD is using the actual whole of Muay Thai and BJJ instead of specific tools from each discipline. Its hardly the same thing, and I've written this above. You just didn't get it.

Fighting like a thai fighter is no more SD than using fancy flourishes and banging sticks together in arnis/kali/escrima. FMA's aren't SD either, but I'm sure, as you've made it clear, that you think that the actual TMA system is actual reality based self defense instead of understanding that the concepts and how you use specific tools found within are the actual distinguishment.

You don't just become a muay thai fighter and then "add" arnis by studying it and then "add" BJJ by practicing it. You've learned how to fight from three different ranges but still have no concept of what SD really is by doing that.

You've been done a disservice by the MMA fad because you think that crosstraining as you know it creates a RBSD dynamic because of being well rounded. I'm sorry to tell you that it doesn't, and you can ask any qualified instructor anywhere in the world and they will tell you the same. Its not about how much you can stuff in your arsenal, but how much you can take away and still be left with techniques that adhere to basic SD concepts and maxims(without oversimplifying).

Krav Maga
Senshido
Sanuces
WWII Combatives
Mongolian Wrestling
VAJ
Comtech
Blauer Tactical Systems

No matter the system, none of them approach SD the way that you two are suggesting. None of them teach you to be a ring fighter then just add on dirty stuff to "round you out". The majority of FMA itself is made up of more schools adhering to classical movements and a dueling dogma than modern and progressive RBSD. It seems as though you guys think that just because you mention practicing a weapon system, regardless whether it was in Yankee Stadium or in the Philippines, is supposed to mean that you understand RBSD.

Sparring implies fighting and that's where you are missing the point. RBSD doesn't teach you how to fight. RBSD teaches you how to finish those who try to fight you quickly so you can get out of there. There is an element of surprise that SD works off of and that's what allows a RBSD attack to be so effective.

All this emphasis you put on sparring means nothing because when you spar its a given that you've:

Already given up the element of surprise and played your hand early
Just about given up any chance of ending it quick
Taken a stance
Given your opponent a chance to make his own move

So basically when sparring you're doing everything that you're not supposed to do in RBSD. Why would you train to fight a way that you're not going to execute???????

I can see rolling in ground fighting because most people who don't train are unfamiliar with that aspect of combat and need to see what it is to be mounted. I can see them learning how to escape and reverse submissions and chokes, but actual sparring using BJJ for RBSD purposes defeats the point.

Sparring is for karate, kickboxing, boxing and muay thai where fighting for long periods occurs and sparring is a necessary evil for endurance. Ring arts are endurance sports that require a lot of sparring so that you can keep fighting round after round after round. Having that kind of endurance is certainly not a bad thing and can only benefit you, but it isn't necessary for RBSD. You keep putting so much emphasis on using sparring for reflexes when the live drills offer the same benefits for reflexes. The only reason that I've found sparring to be necessary is to develop one's own flow, which is a whole other topic.

This isn't a chest beating contest, but I have experience in most of the systems I've mentioned or at least exposure to them all, mainly because most of them came from the same source. I know that muay thai/boxing are ring arts and no reputable RBSD schools are teaching their practitioners to be ring fighters for street situations as you claim.

That's exactly what you're suggesting and you couldn't be more mistaken. The confusion here lies in your inability to accept that tools from MT, boxing and BJJ can be used without ever having to use the approach a sportsman would or do what a ring fighter does.

That's it in a nutshell.

I hope this helps and good luck!

[Ghost]

Can you name some names then please of who teaches in the way you suggest. Id like to see what it is exactly you are talking about, genuinely interested.

[Uke]

Can you name some names then please of who teaches in the way you suggest. Id like to see what it is exactly you are talking about, genuinely interested.

I name plenty of systems above that don't take a ring approach to RBSD. In fact, I can't name one reputable RBSD that does.

The only two in that list that possibly might(and I've never seen it from what I was exposed to) are Senshido and Blauer's System. That is to say that I cannot say that those two definitely don't as I have only had exposure to them and haven't ventured to Canada to see the entire operation, but from the exposure that I've had to the systems and practitioners, they do not approach RBSD like ring fighters whatsoever.

That's as far as you need to go. The rest is research left up to you.

[Dan_The_Man]

Thanks for expanding on that point Uke.

I see this happen over and over again in this forum: One person makes a point, and the other misinterprets and exaggerates that point.

It seems that you two have the idea that every RBSD is using the actual whole of Muay Thai and BJJ instead of specific tools from each discipline. Its hardly the same thing, and I've written this above. You just didn't get it.

Come on man, we never said that. All I was trying to express in my post was that I thought sparring was a valuable tool when it comes to being an effective fighter. I may be wrong but as I have limited experience I cant fully back up my claims, they are just ideas and that’s why I post them so people who know what they are talking about can give me their views.

I think what I was really trying to say was that sparring is useful to understand how we will react under pressure when being attacked. I feel that is very useful when in a real fight. When I was training Wing Chun we did lots of drills but none of them were truly under pressure. I also went to a sparring seminar with my Wing Chun class (which was basically a boxing class) and the difference when someone is in front of you actually throwing punches with the threat of getting hit was huge.

Can you not deduct the 'sport fighting' side of sparring and use it purely as a tool to train reflexes and general awareness of individual attacks? If you are faced with an opponent in the street you cant always expect to surprise them with a RBSD attack and run away. Due to the infinite variables of real life confrontations it is extremely likely that you will be dodging punches in a fight. Doesn’t sparring have some merit in this respect?

However, after reading your post I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. I can see how it may not be worth learning Muay Thai if you are interested in self-defence. But I don’t think this renders sparring a useless tool for SD. Surely you can agree that the improvement in reflexes (dodging, striking etc) are beneficial in any confrontation. May be its just the general philosophy of Muay Thai that cant be applied to RBSD but some of the tools can e.g. the conditioning, fitness, strength and power you gain from hitting so many pads.

What I would really like to do is get into something like Krav Maga. Unfortunately there are no Krav Maga instructors teaching in SW London.

Uke, may be you could spread some light on your experience with the SD styles you mentioned: Krav Maga, Senshido,Sanuces...

[Ghost]

Of that list i have experience in Krav Maga and that is taught in a fairly similar way to a thai boxing lesson.
Any leaps made in terms of application have been obvious.
I dont quite get what the difference is exactly. Im not taking the piss im just not quite sure what you mean.
If we could focus on krav maga cos its a system i can relate to and have experience of, they use all the methods of teaching and sparring etc that is used in thai boxing.
Id go as far to say that their training methods are based on thai boxing classes.

I name plenty of systems above that don't take a ring approach to RBSD. In fact, I can't name one reputable RBSD that does.

The only two in that list that possibly might(and I've never seen it from what I was exposed to) are Senshido and Blauer's System. That is to say that I cannot say that those two definitely don't as I have only had exposure to them and haven't ventured to Canada to see the entire operation, but from the exposure that I've had to the systems and practitioners, they do not approach RBSD like ring fighters whatsoever.

That's as far as you need to go. The rest is research left up to you.

[Tant01]

Teach me???

If I'm banned from this site for replying to your nonsense with the same kind of hostility and pettiness that you harbor towards me and demonstrate nearly every time we interact .... then so be it. We all know you can ban me now ... once the circus let one employee go there was an opening. Besides, banning me would significantly reduce the posts here to what ..... 5 or 6 a week?


I give Ju-bark!-ji a reason to "...........

I give you a reason to vent and rant about the misinformation you possess.

And the articles I post give other members and mods a chance to voice their racism. They know who they are.

It all works out for everyone!
And as far as pushing you ... man up. If you think you can get snippy with me and cry when you get it right back then maybe you should consider another job to get your Defend merit badge. I rarely if ever initiate a hostility.

.....

I don't need to push you to teach you, McDonald.

........LOL

I'm sure you'd be missed....