Here's a underground streetfight

[jubaji]

1. At no point during the fight does this guy appear to be off balance, even while throwing punches.

Lots of boxers, etc have great balance while punching. Doesn't mean they can keep their feet outside of their range. Surely you know this.

[jubaji]

2. If not a shoot to the legs, then what? We are talking bjj, not a well balance mma guy.

You may be thinking bjj, but that's not the only grappling game in town. Anyway, do you think there are no other takedowns available?



None of this is to say that person "x" still wouldn't get killed in the attempt, but the blanket assumptions are unnecessary.

[Vio]

Kimbo the guy in the video fought and beat a wrestler.
Kimbo was taken down, but he managed to get back up and kick him in the throat.

[Uber_Tap]

No jubaji, I'm not trying to say that bjj is the only art in town, but in one of the earlier posts someone specifically said that a 170 bjj guy could hang with this guy far better than a 170 boxer, I'm speaking specifically to that. I also understand that I am being very general in my double leg takedown example.

The post in question was about a 170lb bjj guy. I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but honestly what would you do to get this guy off his feet?

[jubaji]

in one of the earlier posts someone specifically said that a 170 bjj guy could hang with this guy far better than a 170 boxer,

Well, he probably would have a better chance, based on what we can know just from the video.

[jubaji]

I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but honestly what would you do to get this guy off his feet?

Me? I'd buy him a lazy-boy recliner and a keg of beer.

[Uber_Tap]

Me? I'd buy him a lazy-boy recliner and a keg of beer.

You are wise grasshopper, I have much 2 learn.

[Chilly Dog]

My point is that a 170 pound grappler has a fair chance of choking out or breaking that guys limbs. Not a 100% for sure..but a good chance of causing some damage. A 170 pound boxer would get creamed. Self-defense for people who aren't giants is supposed to give you an advantage in any situation. BJJ would do that. Certain MA's will do that. Boxing won't do that.

This is just silly. The average boxer is much better prepared to defend him or herself than the average martial artist -- including a bjj practitioner. The boxer is going to be in better condition, used to getting hit, and going to be able to hit very hard relative to size. He's also going to have trained much more realistically than the average martial artist, is going to know how to clinch, and is going to have some experience with the "dirty tricks" that most boxers are able to use even with a referee watching (ie. headbutts, arm wrenches, etc.). Most other arts cannot say this. I've trained in bjj since the beginning of the year and I like it, but the idea that it is universally effective or even close to it is rediculous. How much training does the average bjj practitioner even have starting from a standing position?

Even if my school is unique and most others start from standing position a majority of the time, in many situations, going to the ground is not practical. This situation is a good example of one of the more benign in this area. Would YOU feel comfortable going to the ground with this guy, in that back yard, with all his friends watching??? Keep in mind that his internet interview says his one loss came from the fact that a guy maced him. Would you depend upon him and his friends to fight fair in your "no rules" format?

Finally, you can't use Royce Gracie or his brothers and cousins as examples -- they are among some of the best martial artists in the world. You think this guy has a chance, even with his size, against Roy Jones?

I think a skilled amateur or pro boxer would have his hands full with this guy to be sure, but so would a bjj brown or black belt. Remember, this guy showed some boxing skill, but that was relative to an unskilled opponent. Someone who truly knew how to box and had been in the ring would be another level -- a much more competitive one.

[jubaji]

This is just silly. The average boxer is much better prepared to defend him or herself than the average martial artist -- including a bjj practitioner.

You are missing the limitation of this video. We can see that he can fight on his feet. The video does not give an indication of his grappling skills, if any. It's all bullshit speculation, but as bullshit speculation goes you have to judge as well as you may by the limited evidence available.

[Chilly Dog]

You are missing the limitation of this video. We can see that he can fight on his feet. The video does not give an indication of his grappling skills, if any. It's all bullshit speculation, but as bullshit speculation goes you have to judge as well as you may by the limited evidence available.

No, I very well see the limitation of this video. You are missing my point, which is two-fold:

1) You guys are much more willing to concede that this guy has significant boxing skill than I am. While he's obviously boxed before, the skill he shows is relative to an unskilled opponent. A skilled boxer would be a very different proposition, so it is not at all a given that he would easily handle a 170 pound skilled boxer.

2) Even if he has absolutely no grappling skills, a bjj practitioner would still have to get him to the ground and work effectively there, while sacrificing 70 pounds (in his internet interview, he says he is 6'3", 240). This is also not a given. In fact, as I pointed out, going to the ground in the "no rules" situation that Atlas described, and in many others, is probably not even advisable, and potentially dangerous.

That said, you are right -- it's all speculation. Who knows what would happen. My main point was responding to Atlas' post asserting that boxing is NOT suitable for self defense (while bjj of course is much more so). He's obviously never boxed, nor sparred "no rules" (as he puts it) with a skilled boxer. If he had, he would have a whole different respect for boxing and its practicality for self-defense.

Now, back to monitoring the debate on the "chinese boxing..." thread with the guy who hasn't posted in three years.

[Uber_Tap]

Jubaji and I have gone back and forth about this, but I can't even argue that a boxer is better conditioned than a bjj guy. I've done standup and bjj, and the bjj training is more grueling than any standup I've done. I'm not saying that a boxer is less conditioned, but he certainly isn't conditioned much better.

As far as the fight going to the ground with dudes friends around, what's the difference? If his friends get into the fight you are getting your ass kicked, standing up or on the ground. If you will afford me the opportunity to jump to the bjj side of the fence for a moment, if you are lucky enough to somehow get on the ground with good position you may be able to snap an arm or dislocate a knee or something taking his big ass out of the fight. His friends will still f you up, but at least they won't hold you while he pounds you in the face.

While I certainly don't want to question the moral integrity of the fine gentlemen that hold back yard fights, I wouldn't be suprised if the majority of the fight fans had guns, so there is probably potential for every one getting shot up if someone jumped in the fight.

[Tom Yum]

My main point was responding to Atlas' post asserting that boxing is NOT suitable for self defense (while bjj of course is much more so). He's obviously never boxed, nor sparred "no rules" (as he puts it) with a skilled boxer. If he had, he would have a whole different respect for boxing and its practicality for self-defense.

Boxers are very resourcefull when it comes to self defense. They have a great appreciation and understanding of balance, timing and power. They are the hardest punchers and hardest to hit.

Add all the classical boxing techniques and a few effective dirty ones. You see what I mean? Ever been accidentally elbowed, head/shoulder butted or thumbed in the eye while sparring? sh!t hurts.

[gregimotis]

While reading this thread again, I've thought of a big hole in the 'boxing this guy' vs. 'BJJ'ing this guy' premise. We can agree he has some exposure to boxing, or at least enough stand up exp. to fight a little like one, right? We don't know if he can grapple, though.
The assumption by atlas is that a bjj'er at 170lbs might take this guy. What is going to happen to that assumption when this dude turns out to have worked on the Folsom prison wrestling team for three or four years? read on....

"This boxer chump is goin' down" (two leg takedown and...) "Sprawled! okay escape, swing around and... okay, I've got him in my guard... Holy s**T I've got a 240lb meat machine passing my guard!!! Oh gawd why did I ever smack off to those guys at defend.? Ohh where's my mommy?!?"

[Chilly Dog]

Jubaji and I have gone back and forth about this, but I can't even argue that a boxer is better conditioned than a bjj guy. I've done standup and bjj, and the bjj training is more grueling than any standup I've done. I'm not saying that a boxer is less conditioned, but he certainly isn't conditioned much better.

As far as the fight going to the ground with dudes friends around, what's the difference? If his friends get into the fight you are getting your ass kicked, standing up or on the ground. If you will afford me the opportunity to jump to the bjj side of the fence for a moment, if you are lucky enough to somehow get on the ground with good position you may be able to snap an arm or dislocate a knee or something taking his big ass out of the fight. His friends will still f you up, but at least they won't hold you while he pounds you in the face.

While I certainly don't want to question the moral integrity of the fine gentlemen that hold back yard fights, I wouldn't be suprised if the majority of the fight fans had guns, so there is probably potential for every one getting shot up if someone jumped in the fight.

Good points. My thought about being on the ground with his friends around is that, if I'm standing and they jump in, at least I can run. Even more, though, it was to point out the foolishness of assuming that going to the ground in a "no rules" environment is a good decision in all or even most situations.

My main point was that Atlas' post was off base in so significantly devaluing a boxer's skills. But we can agree that most 170 pound martial artists, including boxers, would be "up against it" with this guy.

As for conditioning, I agree that bjj is extremely grueling. However, for me, the six minute rounds we do at my bjj school are edged out by three minute rounds on the thai pads (three on, two off). Those are the toughest training I've experienced (from a conditioning standpoint), especially when I'm being pushed by a good holder. Of course, the combination of the two has got me in pretty good shape!

[Patrick G.]

"This boxer chump is goin' down" (two leg takedown and...) "Sprawled! okay escape, swing around and... okay, I've got him in my guard... Holy s**T I've got a 240lb meat machine passing my guard!!! Oh gawd why did I ever smack off to those guys at defend.? Ohh where's my mommy?!?"

LMAO...