To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

[jubaji]

.............................

[dimmak786]

Its ridiculous posts like that by lucidist (the thread starter) which tarnish Lee's name.

Im as big a Bruce Lee fan as any, but I know Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ali, hell the top ten lightweights of the day would have murdered Lee in a fight. Boxing or street or otherwise.

Also would a world class judoka really stand there and wait for Lee's punches to land? And base Lees's superiority on punches that" stopped a few inches short of his face"!!hahahahha

The quotes in the thread starters post are laughable as well.

Lee's physique was supposed to have impressed Joe Weider to the point he said it was the best physique he had ever seen. How ridiculous. Many high school kids have Lee's physique. Lee was not and never tried to be a body builder. If Lee had wanted to concentrate on his physique he could have made it 10 times more impressive there is no doubt about that.

Lee's true legacy was his tremendous fighting ability borne from his years of street fighting, his training with Yip man, and the impromptu challenges he faced with alarming regularity.

It is an injustice to use the 1964 Ed Parker tournament and say Lee was just into tricks etc.

Nonsense.

One must understand the world of the 1960's and 70's was different. By the time Lee died his life had followed a natural progression.

His streetfighting days a teenager, his intense training, his period of inactivity after his back gave out in 1970 where he contentrated on mental training and his writings, and than his acting career and the challenge matches he fought right up to his death.

[lucidmist]

Sounds like you've got a fast metabolism. My body responds the same way.

Isometrics builds strength as far as I understand and so it could build power, but I'm guessing its not an optimal power excercise. Think of power as the ability to generate force for a certain distance in a minimum amount of time.

You need to either generate more force, or cut down the time of force delivery. Best way to generate more force is to lift heavy with low reps. Speed work cuts down the delivery time - think plyometrics or light loads done quickly for a lot of reps.

Hey Tom Yum, thanks for the advice. Somehow, you kickstarted the motivation in me, and I can't wait to get started again. I haven't done heavy loads with low reps.. Just lots of light loads with many reps. I'll try the former, and will let you know how it goes!

[Tom Yum]

Sounds like you've got a fast metabolism. My body responds the same way.

Isometrics builds strength as far as I understand and so it could build power, but I'm guessing its not an optimal power excercise. Think of power as the ability to generate force for a certain distance in a minimum amount of time.

You need to either generate more force or cut down the time of force delivery.

Best way to generate more force is to lift heavy with low reps.

To cut down delivery time (increase speed) think plyometrics or light loads done quickly for a lot of reps - sort of what you've been doing.

Both forms of training are good for power development.

[lucidmist]

In your last post, you stated that you always ended up semi-wrestling with the guy attacking you. That's grappling/infighting range. Perfect for all the harder weapons (head, elbow, knee), lots of sweeps, throws and biting if you have to.

Bodybuilding isn't the best kind of weight training for fight conditioning. Its not bad, but your goal is to increase your maximum strength or increase your power delivery. You're looking at lifting heavy loads with few reps or light loads with a high number of reps done somewhat quickly.

Your focus isn't on doing isolation moves as much; more on compound excercises that work several groups at once.

Tom Yum, thanks for the advice.. no wonder my physique always looks different some weeks and different some weeks. Ok, my weight fluctuates really fast, it goes up and down within days. When I work out, if I do reps with more rest time in between, I notice for the following few weeks I bulk up more, but my body doesn't look as lean or cut. However, if I do reps with lesser rest time in between, it doesn't bulk up much but I feel somehow more energetic and my body looks leaner. Does it make sense? Or does it affect only me?

Anyway.. one more question, if you don't mind.. I used to do alot of isometrics, does it help to gain power? I've asked a few people, done some research, but always with mixed info.

[fire cobra]

One of my guys fought Remco,he is one big ,strong,skillfull dude.

[Tom Yum]

In your last post, you stated that you always ended up semi-wrestling with the guy attacking you. That's grappling/infighting range. Perfect for all the harder weapons (head, elbow, knee), lots of sweeps, throws and biting if you have to.

Bodybuilding isn't the best kind of weight training for fight conditioning. Its not bad, but your goal is to increase your maximum strength or increase your power delivery. You're looking at lifting heavy loads with few reps or light loads with a high number of reps done somewhat quickly.

Your focus isn't on doing isolation moves as much; more on compound excercises that work several groups at once.

[lucidmist]

Sounds like you could have used some grappling in your training. Size matters, but so does technique.

Check out Judo/Jujitsu expert 6'4" 260 Remco Pardeol vs. 6'1" 176 Royce Gracie.

Lol, thanks! Well, I think I need way more than just grappling.. maybe I need a whole new bodybuilding/conditioning regime as well. but I'm actually slacking off quite abit.. over the years, I've stopped getting into trouble, and enjoying not getting into trouble.. so, I got lazy.. not good, I know... never know when trouble will come looking.

[Tom Yum]

Sounds like you could have used some grappling in your training. Size matters, but so does technique.

Check out Judo/Jujitsu expert 6'4" 260 Remco Pardeol vs. 6'1" 176 Royce Gracie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77uHwMhoWI

[lucidmist]

Yeah if were purely a boxing match then there would be no other real option but to move in close but as bruce can kick the stay on the outside option is better imo.

I seriously don't remember much of what happened in the fights that I got into.. but I've always waited for them to attack me, and I move into the attacks. Somehow it always ended up with me elbowing some part of the guy's chin/face/head or body. None of them were patient enough to stay on the outside, they always always moved in first. But only trouble I really had was with a guy much heavier than me who didn't punch, but moved in VERY suddenly, took my punch to his face, and grabbed me, shoving me around and all I could do was hit everywhere I could hit like crazy. He was really slow with his punches, but I don't know why he always caught hold of me easily. Just when I thought he was slowing down, getting worn out, he moved surprisingly fast to grab me. I'm not sure if he was trying to push me or slam me against the walls but we always ended up semi-wrestling, and I never had space to stay further away from him from the beginning, so all I could do was work full on from the inside. And because of the close proximity, he couldn't punch me. Fortunately, he knew nothing about using knees or elbows or teeth, just totally relying on his size and weight. Just wish I was merciless enough to pop his eyes out, or strike at his temples, and it would've ended sooner.

Ah, sorry, but my point is, sometimes a fight is a test of patience. Not a group fight, that one you can't stand and do nothing once it's started. But a one-on-one fight. Striking distance goes two ways, so it's either you move into the person's striking distance or he moves into yours. Bruce Lee definitely would've possessed much better "inside" skills than I could ever have, so maybe he wouldn't need to stay on the outside and just rely on kicks? Kicking actually leaves one rather vulnerable, especially when facing a fast and accurate boxer with good reach. And I think it'd take a long time for Bruce to wear Ali down before he wore himself out.. and with his height, it's a danger even to attempt to kick Ali first, because I think Ali could easily get a wild shot in and get Bruce. By trying to kick Ali, I think Bruce may already be moving in to Ali's striking distance. I don't know, but I've always waited, but like I said, I'm not a good fighter so maybe I did it all wrong.

[lucidmist]

Yeah if were purely a boxing match then there would be no other real option but to move in close but as bruce can kick the stay on the outside option is better imo.

duplicate.

[Ghost]

Yeah if were purely a boxing match then there would be no other real option but to move in close but as bruce can kick the stay on the outside option is better imo.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Another unknown is bruces chin. Ive seen guys that cant spar in class because a jab drops them and ive seen guys that can be smacked all day and not go down, this is a biological issue taht is out of bruce lees control and something every fighter is lumped with and is a big issue as you see in boxing, some guys just dont have the chin for it. We dont know what Bruces chin is like but we know from the rumble in the jungle that alis is solid. So this would be influencial in my opinion.

I can't argue with this and in fact you raise a very critical question (time immemorial) key to all fighters, any fighters, all over the globe: How good is your "chin."

other factors:

Normally it makes sense for a smaller fighter to work on the inside and try and break the range and get up close. with this kind of height difference i think it would be a bad idea as there is just too much weight/height difference and ali could physically push bruce around too easily due to the weight difference. imagine a guy half your weight and 8 inches shorter than you close up to you, you could dominate them that close up. It would make more sense to do as you said and try and work the leg, knee strikes to wear ali down and then move in with punches combinating off the kicks.

Yeah, a smaller fighter in terms of height, according to canons of boxing, is suppose to always press the fight on the bigger guy and close the distance. I'm a true believer in this. Although in the case of a person than can strike well with their legs I think the person should move around on the bigger guy and "cut them down like a tree" by assaulting their legs. (I'll include breaking someone's knee with that)

my opinion on what might be the deciding factor:

I think the space and environment would make a big difference.
Ali being used to a clean flat square would be out of place in a cluttered warehouse floor where as bruce may be more used to training in a real world physical environment.
The space issue would be interesting and to me might be the clincher of the fight.
In a small space bruce wouldnt be able to stay out of range easily and his abilty to move around faster than ali in terms of footwork would largely be lost. THis would be to alis advantage as lee would have no way to maintain distance.
The opposite would be true in a more open space. here we would see bruces smaller size meaning he could stay out of range more easily and ali may struggle to follow lee around. THis would allow Lee his wearing down shots to the legs knees and when he sees signs of injury or slowing he can start punching off the kicks. this is basically standard thai boxing tactics against a larger punching opponent lol so you can see how im thinking.

So in my opinion, assuming they are reasonably close in ability but lee has more variety, i think it would largely be down to the environment they fought in, all other unknown factors aside. Id place my money based on that though i would lean towards ali because i know his chin is solid and i know he can go to war. i dont know this about bruce.

Good thoughts.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Although I agree in principle with this, what I would say is if you are going to try and kick a good boxer you had better not miss. Although they are largely oblivious to low line strikes, they have an unparallelled transportation system that will put them all over you if you are so much as an inch out or a second late.

LMAO. This is probably very true.

[Ghost]

Ok, not in regard to ali vs lee, but in general, brief and off the top of my head...the guy on the attack is often the winner. this isnt always the case but mostly an attacker has the advantage. I can see a ton of people pick this apart but read it all before you do.

If you are the one on attacking a few advantages come up.
1) you control the direction of the fight, you can cut off his sideways or rearwards retreats and he cant move forwards. think of a game of chess where you pin an opponent so its hard for them to move in certain directions.a counter puncher quick on his toes can negate this to some degree but moving forwards other than to draw a punch is not on the cards so much.

2) you have more control of the pace of the fight, as he reacts to you he has to go at your speed at a minimum, of course he can go faster, but he cant go slower or he will lose.

3) Being the aggressor requires less skill than being a counter puncher as you arent the one thats having to do the countering, kind of obvious in a way but the fact is that being the attacker is often, not always, but often easier. You dont have to dodge the punch as you are the one throwing it but you do have to watch for their reaction. in this regard he has to dodge your punch and throw a counter, you only have to throw a punch, therefore its easier. this is somewhat simplified but you get the drift.

However, the very best style is, if you can only be one and not good at everything, is to be a good counter puncher....sounds like a big u-turn.
This is because of the opening created by the attacker, you have a weakness to exploit, the attacker may or may not have this luxury, the counter puncher does.
If you can do this, the you have a distinct advantage.

This is all if you basically fight with that kind of style and does relate to the first shot thrown as well.
Its easier to be a good attacking fighter than it is to be a good counter puncher. so unless you really nail a counter punching style its better to be more attacking.

Ali excelled as a counter puncher. i comment on lee as i havent seen etc blah blah.