To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

[lucidmist]

yeah man...I had studied physiology and some other areas relating to the human body and mind ...and then being introduced martial arts followed by an introduction to Bruce Lee and only a year later being actually taken interest in his capabilities as a martial artist as I got interested in improving on the martial arts I've been practicing. Its interesting for me coz...I always experimenting with techniques only after that reading that Bruce had done those and brought it to the next level...which at the point in practice is entirely conceivable. Which is why I totally believe...NO...understand how he can do all these things.

I use Bruce as a benchmark for my own exercise and martial arts (actually just 1 martial art) practice as a guidepost. And in trying to find and experiment in my own way....surprisingly i find that I am beginning to understand what JKD is about.

So when I read detractors here talk all that crap and even claim they are martial artists....I really can't understand it. If I who have just studied 1 martial art and am seeing its various dimensions (hard and soft and other dimensions) can understand his way, I can really see how powerful Bruce, , who founded his concept of JKD, could really be, and how much he would have needed to control himself for film.

Yeah man.. well, let's say even if I was someone who could beat Bruce Lee (IF), I wouldn't automatically put him down as someone who couldn't fight. I mean, if a kid's punch in the right places could cause a twinge, imagine a punch from someone like Bruce Lee.

Also, no one is unbeatable.. let's say Ali could beat him once, it may not necessarily mean Ali can beat him always, and that one fight can determine who's the better of the two.

[Ghost]

yeah man...I had studied physiology and some other areas relating to the human body and mind ...and then being introduced martial arts followed by an introduction to Bruce Lee and only a year later being actually taken interest in his capabilities as a martial artist as I got interested in improving on the martial arts I've been practicing. Its interesting for me coz...I always experimenting with techniques only after that reading that Bruce had done those and brought it to the next level...which at the point in practice is entirely conceivable. Which is why I totally believe...NO...understand how he can do all these things.

I use Bruce as a benchmark for my own exercise and martial arts (actually just 1 martial art) practice as a guidepost. And in trying to find and experiment in my own way....surprisingly i find that I am beginning to understand what JKD is about.

So when I read detractors here talk all that crap and even claim they are martial artists....I really can't understand it. If I who have just studied 1 martial art and am seeing its various dimensions (hard and soft and other dimensions) can understand his way, I can really see how powerful Bruce, , who founded his concept of JKD, could really be, and how much he would have needed to control himself for film.

would you say it is necessary for people to understand bruce lee to be a good martial artist?

[mano012sg]

LOL. Nice..

yeah man...I had studied physiology and some other areas relating to the human body and mind ...and then being introduced martial arts followed by an introduction to Bruce Lee and only a year later being actually taken interest in his capabilities as a martial artist as I got interested in improving on the martial arts I've been practicing. Its interesting for me coz...I always experimenting with techniques only after that reading that Bruce had done those and brought it to the next level...which at the point in practice is entirely conceivable. Which is why I totally believe...NO...understand how he can do all these things.

I use Bruce as a benchmark for my own exercise and martial arts (actually just 1 martial art) practice as a guidepost. And in trying to find and experiment in my own way....surprisingly i find that I am beginning to understand what JKD is about.

So when I read detractors here talk all that crap and even claim they are martial artists....I really can't understand it. If I who have just studied 1 martial art and am seeing its various dimensions (hard and soft and other dimensions) can understand his way, I can really see how powerful Bruce, , who founded his concept of JKD, could really be, and how much he would have needed to control himself for film.

[lucidmist]

-Bruce Lee's Death -- On an overdose of drugs to make his body look good, while recovering from a hair removal surgery, got hit by a dozen ninjas and hitmen with the death touch and it got activated while he was having a hot romp with Betty Ting Pei, where she gave him an aspirin instead of a contraceptive pill-for-men. As a result it was too much for him and his brain swelled and he died.

Ok now have I covered all the 'facts - as stated by detractors'? If not add a few.

***SHARKS***

LOL. Nice..

[lucidmist]

Yeah, competition is something I wouldn't mind doing some day. Outside of age my lifestyle and dedication hasn't been something very conducive to becoming a competitive athlete.

First and foremost my purpose for training is self-protection, to improve my confidence, and perhaps one day to be able to teach or pass on some of what I know.

But I'm something of a competitive person so there is some desire in me for one or two MMA fights in the future maybe.

ha, yeah, if you ever join a competition, share it!

i guess it does mark some sort of accomplishment to have done it.. i could never have the discipline to do it, even IF i ever achieve the skill to. my diet, insomnia, lifestyle in general, bad bad bad. :P

[lucidmist]

Thanks for the compliment. Then again, you might not feel the same after this one.

Thus far, in my own look at Lee's possibly true skills as a martial artist, I've shared that considered the evidence of Credible Eyewitnesses - people like Inosanto, or Kimura, for example. People proven over time to be of unquestionable integrity.

In the above post I looked at the testimony of Expert Witnessess people proven to know what the heck they're talking about.

I'm actually compiling a list of types of Credible Evidences, here's another - the Witness of Logic, it's a toughy to read to read, though.

I'm a film student. Can't watch a film without looking at lighting, placement of actors, genre, and so forth.

As I consider Lee in his films, my conclusion is that he is a charismatic actor. Like Elvis was in his films. No acting talent of any real depth, just charisma.

Or like Farrah and her two "faucets," Kate Jackson, and Jacklyn Smith were on the 70's TV show, "Charlies Angels." Charisma all over the place but no real acting talent. Unlike Marlyn Monroe, Brad Pitt, et al, who are also very charismatic while at the same time hugely talented.

Anyway, when not fighting, or when stopped, Lee would grimace - make faces to show anger, agitation, and oo forth. No real "emotional content," to borrow his phrase. Suposedly he and Coburn woulkd debate this when Coburn would try to help him and pint it out.

He's really a bad actor when not kicking butt - "Longstreet" doesn't count because, as he himself said in "The Lost Interview," he was just being himself.

What's left is that he looks as credible as an absolutely astounding fighting machine in his movies, not because he was some kind of genius, legendary master actor's actor, Robert DeNiro playing a boxer ("Raging Bull"), but because he was one bad s.o.b., as Tito too must've recognized just from the way the man was built - for fighting; moved - like a world class prize fighter; choreographed - like someone who knows something about the true energy, rhythym, craziness and psychology of a real fight.

Like those looks in "Enter," in his underground battlle with Han's guards. There are times where he looks (when fighting)as if he's thinking - "Holy Crap - what've I gotten myself into!" The man obviously had had that experience! As has anyone who's "been there."

Or that battle scene with Norris, in "Way" - says it all! In the slow motion parts, he moves like some wild lion engaged in getting at it's prey!

It's the same with all his flms but for "Game" which I've not cared for, as it's largely mising all that (after all, it's mostly outtakes, etc. more on this angle though, some other time)

Admitedly, this piece is in rough form, but it was on my mind.

By the way, what do you think of what Davis Miller has to say about Lee's filmed workout on a heavy bag. Myself, I completely disagreed with him on that one - based on what I was looking at it with. Let me know... hope this one wasn't as tough to read as I fear...

hey man, ha, don't worry, i really appreciate your comments because you write constructive stuff. i mean, this IS supposed to be a forum for discussion and debate, for everyone to share proper views and opinions.

ok, i totally share your views about his acting. i think it'd sicken my stomach to see him in a romantic scene. imagine him kissing a lady lead. yeech. and honestly, even the fight choreographies weren't great. plenty of wasted moves, unrealistic sequences and why do all the gangs always attack one person at a time?? ;P

hmm.. well, i've never found anything wrong with the way bruce lee worked with the heavy bag.. but i'm no expert. just that i work on it pretty much the same way. although they say it's more like a push, it's actually cos we put our entire hip and arm behind the punch. it does have a pushing effect, but that does add on to the power of the punch. i've never done western boxing, so i can't comment on that.. :P

[mano012sg]

I just feel like venting my frustrations about Bruce Lee Detractors. Assuming what you say is 200% true:

-Bruce Lee's Physique -- Digital Makeover
-Bruce Lee's Feats -- Rumours
-Bruce Lee's Demonstrations -- Staged with rigs or like pre-acted or fixed
-Bruce Lee in a fight -- Staged and just to gain publicity
-Bruce Lee on Film -- just an actor who had the talent to make his moves look legit for a short period.
-Bruce Lee's books -- Just pure propaganda
-Bruce Lee vs Ali -- Ali would have sent Bruce to the next galaxy, and Bruce would hardly touched Ali as his moves were too cinematic and Bruce would NEVER NEVER have a chance in a REAL Fight.
-Bruce Lee's Death -- On an overdose of drugs to make his body look good, while recovering from a hair removal surgery, got hit by a dozen ninjas and hitmen with the death touch and it got activated while he was having a hot romp with Betty Ting Pei, where she gave him an aspirin instead of a contraceptive pill-for-men. As a result it was too much for him and his brain swelled and he died.

Ok now have I covered all the 'facts - as stated by detractors'? If not add a few.

***SHARKS***

[Knuckles&Knees]

hey bro, your comments are great. i believe everyone has stuff to offer, and even masters learn from students sometimes. unfortunately, i don't have much to be tapped into... also tapping into others here. are you thinking of competing someday?

anyway, thanks for sharing so much, eye opener!

Yeah, competition is something I wouldn't mind doing some day. Outside of age my lifestyle and dedication hasn't been something very conducive to becoming a competitive athlete.

First and foremost my purpose for training is self-protection, to improve my confidence, and perhaps one day to be able to teach or pass on some of what I know.

But I'm something of a competitive person so there is some desire in me for one or two MMA fights in the future maybe.

[Liberty]

Liberty... AWESOME...

I seriously think no one says it better than you.. at least IMO.

Thanks.

Thanks for the compliment. Then again, you might not feel the same after this one.

Thus far, in my own look at Lee's possibly true skills as a martial artist, I've shared that considered the evidence of Credible Eyewitnesses - people like Inosanto, or Kimura, for example. People proven over time to be of unquestionable integrity.

In the above post I looked at the testimony of Expert Witnessess people proven to know what the heck they're talking about.

I'm actually compiling a list of types of Credible Evidences, here's another - the Witness of Logic, it's a toughy to read to read, though.

I'm a film student. Can't watch a film without looking at lighting, placement of actors, genre, and so forth.

As I consider Lee in his films, my conclusion is that he is a charismatic actor. Like Elvis was in his films. No acting talent of any real depth, just charisma.

Or like Farrah and her two "faucets," Kate Jackson, and Jacklyn Smith were on the 70's TV show, "Charlies Angels." Charisma all over the place but no real acting talent. Unlike Marlyn Monroe, Brad Pitt, et al, who are also very charismatic while at the same time hugely talented.

Anyway, when not fighting, or when stopped, Lee would grimace - make faces to show anger, agitation, and oo forth. No real "emotional content," to borrow his phrase. Suposedly he and Coburn woulkd debate this when Coburn would try to help him and pint it out.

He's really a bad actor when not kicking butt - "Longstreet" doesn't count because, as he himself said in "The Lost Interview," he was just being himself.

What's left is that he looks as credible as an absolutely astounding fighting machine in his movies, not because he was some kind of genius, legendary master actor's actor, Robert DeNiro playing a boxer ("Raging Bull"), but because he was one bad s.o.b., as Tito too must've recognized just from the way the man was built - for fighting; moved - like a world class prize fighter; choreographed - like someone who knows something about the true energy, rhythym, craziness and psychology of a real fight.

Like those looks in "Enter," in his underground battlle with Han's guards. There are times where he looks (when fighting)as if he's thinking - "Holy Crap - what've I gotten myself into!" The man obviously had had that experience! As has anyone who's "been there."

Or that battle scene with Norris, in "Way" - says it all! In the slow motion parts, he moves like some wild lion engaged in getting at it's prey!

It's the same with all his flms but for "Game" which I've not cared for, as it's largely mising all that (after all, it's mostly outtakes, etc. more on this angle though, some other time)

Admitedly, this piece is in rough form, but it was on my mind.

By the way, what do you think of what Davis Miller has to say about Lee's filmed workout on a heavy bag. Myself, I completely disagreed with him on that one - based on what I was looking at it with. Let me know... hope this one wasn't as tough to read as I fear...

[lucidmist]

Liberty... AWESOME...

I seriously think no one says it better than you.. at least IMO.

Thanks.

[Liberty]

Muse: To think. Amuse: to cease to think. DVD amusement: to allow a DVD to do your brain's job for you... Some culture we live in...

In other words, Lucid, your testimony about what you saw your instructor do would have to act as someone else's video clip. It would then be a matter of verifying your credibility as a witness (insert jubaji remark here) that of others whose credibility was proven sound and adding to that other means of proving Lee's ability.

Example of a credible witness who wasn't even there! Why then is this person a credible witness? He is a PROVEN fighter. Someone who DOES KNOW a thing or two about that. One of their KNOWN practices, is that of studying other fighter's movement, body structure, etc., for what it says about an opponent's possible skills, attributes, weakenesses, etc. Of course, that's only a part of winning.

Check out what this fighter, PROVEN THE WORLD OVER, has to say about Lee, and whom he lumps Lee in with, in light of the question asked of him.

MMAToday: Are there any fighters you look up to now?
TO [Tito Ortiz]: Not anyone now currently, but I look at people who put it all together like Ali, Bruce Lee 30 years ago. George St. Pierre and BJ are great fighters. I cant respect anyone in my weight class anymore because I get caught up in watching them and being in awe instead of stomping on them, which is what I need to be doing.

http://www.ultimate-fighter.ca/Forum/viewtopic.php?id=3915

Was that on a UFC site - the very venue so many raised on mind-numbing, wouldn't know how to clearly think a thing through any other way, DVDs, claim Lee would have been creamed in? Was that statement made by an actual UFC top dog! Did he say NOT ANYONE NOW CURRENTLY and then lump George St. Pierre and BJ [Peen, who does remind one of Lee] in with Lee? Must be fixed, hunh?

Here's one I borrowed from someone else:

Balck Belt Magazine: What’s your favorite martial arts movie?
Frank Shamrock: It would have to be Enter the Dragon. The philosophy, ideas and energy of it tell a lot about life. It’s truth, and that’s why it’s always going to be there. You see the truth. There may be a lot of story and [filler], but there’s a big piece of truth you can’t run away from.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/567

Bottom line: Those who so easliy dismiss Lee on THEIR perceived strength of the witness of video clips not only betray their actual ignorance of other means of credible proof used for decades now by law enforcement, courts of law, archeology, ad infinitum, but do so at the expense of what contribution that aspect of Lee's legacy that matters in this regard could contribute to their own martial growth.

[lucidmist]

And that is the most important point of all!

Agreed!

[jubaji]

Seriously, I've just been laughing every time I read your reply and I post mine. If whatever we're doing has no point, then it certainly has been funny.

And that is the most important point of all!

[lucidmist]

[QUOTE=Liberty;284233]Hi, everyone; I'm new to this site. Not really sure of an entry so. But I ran accross the following on the bullshido.net site. Thought I'd share it, as it came at a different angle on the above matter. This guy's received a really good onslaught of lableling for his stance, but whethered it well. Here's his quote of the person he was responding to, followed by his own two cents.

[quote] The most interesting thing about this whole situation, Jack Man Wong is still alive and able to tell his side of the story. Bruce Lee is not.

Perhaps, but as Jesse Glover pointed out at the end of my quote of his above - "While Bruce was alive no one challenged his account of the fight."

This is possibly a good point - There was Lee, making WJM look bad on a national magazine - Black Belt - for all in the martial arts community to see, and Wong remains quite.

"I'd gotten into a fight in San Francisco (a reference, no doubt, to the Bay Area rather than the city) with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting." [Only Registered Users Can See Links.Click Here to Register for free]

I only mention this because it seems to me too much has been made out of the abscence, thus far, of any video clips which might "prove" any of Lee's true combat skills.

Take late mafia crime bosses, Al Capone and John Gotti, for example. The former was convicted based, not on, then, non-existant wire-tapping and video technology, but on documents and the word of one his accountants. While Gotti was imprisoned based on audio, video, coupled with the word of witnesses proven credible, inspite of their unseemly background.

Perhaps those other means might prove an interesting study.... "

I (Liberty) believe the guy's point was that there are other, just as viable ways to prove a thing. Anyway, nice to meet you guys...

hey Liberty, thanks for the post.. and yeah, that's what I believe too ("Perhaps those other means might prove an interesting study.... ")
. I guess there's always many sides to things, and there's no way to please everybody.. that's why on any topic, there's always debate.

Heh, but I will stick to what I believe, because like your mafia examples, my godfather who raised me, despite the lack of videos, competitions and documents, could kick the crap out of many people (although I've only watched him fight twice), based on accounts from friends and relatives. he's no bodybuilder, average build, but tenacious with an extremely strong will (except towards drugs). I watched him beat up 4 college jerks who threw a football into my face when I was a 6-year-old. One of them was ranting "i know karate man, watch it" to my godpa but man, they should've ran. one of them was wearing a rolex and while blocking my godpa's punch, the rolex's face burst (ha, maybe it was fake). but my point is, he didn't need to have videos or competitions for me to believe he could fight. well, he was a military boxer, and he lost in the ring, but cos outside the ring, the soldiers from different teams are quite competitive too, and arguments always broke out. the guy that he lost to inside the ring, he took care of outside the ring (and went to army prison for that, plus beating up the officer who tried to break the fight up). he just got his term extended for fighting while in rehab, and it pisses me off cos he has no restraint, and the whole family's worried. maybe Bruce just didn't fight as much as he wanted or would like to, for many reasons. He himself advocated that anyone learning martial arts should have restraint. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you must. Plus, it's the world of knives and guns out there, hands and feet may get you a certain leverage, but it ends when a triggered is pulled. He wouldn't be practising what he preached if he had frequent fights and joined competitions.

[lucidmist]

Why does that sound like something from an adult store?

Eeks. Terminator, porn version. I really don't wanna watch that man..