To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

[lucidmist]

Yeah the standard varies a fair bit, for sure boxers arent thinking about their legs and they are vulnerable to kicks. But then when kicking you are vulnerable to punching, balancing on one leg(unstable), and unable to retreat. Its easier to fight and move while punching than kicking by a long way.
on ali vs lee....
With alis range/height he would be able to punch bruce when bruce was in kicking range and possibly beforehand. This is a real problem as you risk trading a kick to the leg for a punch in the head as defending while kicking is tough.Another unknown is bruces chin. Ive seen guys that cant spar in class because a jab drops them and ive seen guys that can be smacked all day and not go down, this is a biological issue taht is out of bruce lees control and something every fighter is lumped with and is a big issue as you see in boxing, some guys just dont have the chin for it. We dont know what Bruces chin is like but we know from the rumble in the jungle that alis is solid. So this would be influencial in my opinion.

So we are potentially left with how many kicks does it take to stop ali and move in for the finish vs how many head shots does ali need to land before bruce is KO'ed.

other factors:

Normally it makes sense for a smaller fighter to work on the inside and try and break the range and get up close. with this kind of height difference i think it would be a bad idea as there is just too much weight/height difference and ali could physically push bruce around too easily due to the weight difference. imagine a guy half your weight and 8 inches shorter than you close up to you, you could dominate them that close up. It would make more sense to do as you said and try and work the leg, knee strikes to wear ali down and then move in with punches combinating off the kicks.

my opinion on what might be the deciding factor:

I think the space and environment would make a big difference.
Ali being used to a clean flat square would be out of place in a cluttered warehouse floor where as bruce may be more used to training in a real world physical environment.
The space issue would be interesting and to me might be the clincher of the fight.
In a small space bruce wouldnt be able to stay out of range easily and his abilty to move around faster than ali in terms of footwork would largely be lost. THis would be to alis advantage as lee would have no way to maintain distance.
The opposite would be true in a more open space. here we would see bruces smaller size meaning he could stay out of range more easily and ali may struggle to follow lee around. THis would allow Lee his wearing down shots to the legs knees and when he sees signs of injury or slowing he can start punching off the kicks. this is basically standard thai boxing tactics against a larger punching opponent lol so you can see how im thinking.

So in my opinion, assuming they are reasonably close in ability but lee has more variety, i think it would largely be down to the environment they fought in, all other unknown factors aside. Id place my money based on that though i would lean towards ali because i know his chin is solid and i know he can go to war. i dont know this about bruce.

Actually, thanks. This was what I was looking for.. an actual analysis. Mainly because I really am very interested in how a smaller guy would fare against a bigger guy, when both are good in their technique. I know the styles vary, I think many people who've fought for real before would've had experienced plenty of wrestling, shoving, grabbing, etc. Not just plain techniques.

Ok.. what if they both just waited? I mean, normally against bigger guys, I'd just wait for them to move in. So far it has worked, but none of the guys were any pro sort of fighter. Only problem I had once was cos it happened in the toilet, the floor was slippery. My punches didn't get through cos I couldn't stand firmly to punch hard enough, and it took alot of wild grabbing and struggling before I hurt his face enough to stop him. He definitely wasn't trained, cos the moment I started attacking like a wild crazy man he just resorted to grabbing at me and ended up always holding on to the ends of my shirt (which tore big time). It's like, he wanted me to stop moving before he could take a shot, but I didn't stop.. I was lucky I didn't slip. He kept grabbing and pushing me cos he couldn't hit me, till my back was against the wall, but the whole time my fists just kept pounding at his head cos I was so afraid if I slowed down, he'd either pull out a knife or hit me really hard. Although it was a bad idea to be against the wall, I was lucky cos it was only then that my punches got heavier with the support of the wall. If he was trained, I doubt I'd have been able to use that to my advantage.

Anyone had a problem punching hard while standing on slippery ground? Is there any upper body method we can utilize to overcome it slightly?

I know Ali wouldn't just make any dumb move to attack Bruce.. but what if they both waited, or Bruce waited for Ali to move first? Or maybe we should stop using Bruce and Ali. In general, against pros, bigger than ourselves, is it a wise move to wait? I've seen plenty of boxing fights, I know the aggressive ones always move in.. but I've also seen plenty where, although the aggressive one moved in, he actually waited for the other guy to throw a punch first before retaliating. So it's like, moving in yet waiting for the attack before attacking (closing the range and waiting).

[Ghost]

You have an excellent point here. I've only sparred so far, I have no record book of competitions yet. I've read words from seasoned boxers that actual *competitions* are another mental ball game than just sparring at the gym.

So, I don't discount your point.



I think though... one has to be careful not to carry the issue of ring experience to far. I say this because I have sparred with a pro boxer and have sparred against seasoned amature fighters, and they are not always "astonishing."

Granted, in at least two of the cases the guys were going easy on me, but you can still pick up a quality to the persons own fighting style and boxing talents. In fact, it was one of the amature fighters that hit me repeatedly the hardest (he outweighed me a lot too). That same amature fighter even wore out the other pro fighter I sparred against.

One thing I've learned from boxing is that boxers are never in the mind mode of protecting their knees or legs from kicks (it's not part of the sport). Their minds actually become conditioned to only thinking of punches being thrown at them - they would be flabergasted if a Thai fighter began throwing powerful kicks to their thighs or calves.

Yeah the standard varies a fair bit, for sure boxers arent thinking about their legs and they are vulnerable to kicks. But then when kicking you are vulnerable to punching, balancing on one leg(unstable), and unable to retreat. Its easier to fight and move while punching than kicking by a long way.
on ali vs lee....
With alis range/height he would be able to punch bruce when bruce was in kicking range and possibly beforehand. This is a real problem as you risk trading a kick to the leg for a punch in the head as defending while kicking is tough.Another unknown is bruces chin. Ive seen guys that cant spar in class because a jab drops them and ive seen guys that can be smacked all day and not go down, this is a biological issue taht is out of bruce lees control and something every fighter is lumped with and is a big issue as you see in boxing, some guys just dont have the chin for it. We dont know what Bruces chin is like but we know from the rumble in the jungle that alis is solid. So this would be influencial in my opinion.

So we are potentially left with how many kicks does it take to stop ali and move in for the finish vs how many head shots does ali need to land before bruce is KO'ed.

other factors:

Normally it makes sense for a smaller fighter to work on the inside and try and break the range and get up close. with this kind of height difference i think it would be a bad idea as there is just too much weight/height difference and ali could physically push bruce around too easily due to the weight difference. imagine a guy half your weight and 8 inches shorter than you close up to you, you could dominate them that close up. It would make more sense to do as you said and try and work the leg, knee strikes to wear ali down and then move in with punches combinating off the kicks.

my opinion on what might be the deciding factor:

I think the space and environment would make a big difference.
Ali being used to a clean flat square would be out of place in a cluttered warehouse floor where as bruce may be more used to training in a real world physical environment.
The space issue would be interesting and to me might be the clincher of the fight.
In a small space bruce wouldnt be able to stay out of range easily and his abilty to move around faster than ali in terms of footwork would largely be lost. THis would be to alis advantage as lee would have no way to maintain distance.
The opposite would be true in a more open space. here we would see bruces smaller size meaning he could stay out of range more easily and ali may struggle to follow lee around. THis would allow Lee his wearing down shots to the legs knees and when he sees signs of injury or slowing he can start punching off the kicks. this is basically standard thai boxing tactics against a larger punching opponent lol so you can see how im thinking.

So in my opinion, assuming they are reasonably close in ability but lee has more variety, i think it would largely be down to the environment they fought in, all other unknown factors aside. Id place my money based on that though i would lean towards ali because i know his chin is solid and i know he can go to war. i dont know this about bruce.

[Tom Yum]

Although I agree in principle with this, what I would say is if you are going to try and kick a good boxer you had better not miss. Although they are largely oblivious to low line strikes, they have an unparallelled transportation system that will put them all over you if you are so much as an inch out or a second late.

Top amateurs in boxing made excellent full-contact karate fighters.

They'd throw the minimum amount of kicks required per round (like 6) and try to get an opening where they could close and bang. Since they were conditioned and could take a blow, they had no problems taking wins over guys who were not conditioned and not used to boxing.

One thing I've learned from boxing is that boxers are never in the mind mode of protecting their knees or legs from kicks (it's not part of the sport). Their minds actually become conditioned to only thinking of punches being thrown at them - they would be flabergasted if a Thai fighter began throwing powerful kicks to their thighs or calves.

Although I agree in principle with this, what I would say is if you are going to try and kick a good boxer you had better not miss. Although they are largely oblivious to low line strikes, they have an unparallelled transportation system that will put them all over you if you are so much as an inch out or a second late.

[Tom Yum]

One thing I've learned from boxing is that boxers are never in the mind mode of protecting their knees or legs from kicks (it's not part of the sport). Their minds actually become conditioned to only thinking of punches being thrown at them - they would be flabergasted if a Thai fighter began throwing powerful kicks to their thighs or calves.

This is true. Likewise, alot of pure grapplers don't think about being struck. Pure kickers don't think about infighting etc.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Anyway, my mom's about to come in my room and ring my neck,so I'll wish all of you a good night. Thanks for the input, and no offense, really.

It's all good, Liberty, you're cool.

Ghost, is alright he just comes from a tough background where things need to be *proven* and understandably so. He is very correct that we conjecture about Bruce because he has no real fight footage for us to judge - nor against great or respected fighters.

But I have confidence in, Bruce, not so much because of his legend but because of how I see (in videos) his body move.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Good points.
My view is that its a big gap between sparring and getting in the ring or having a real fight against someone that can fight.

You have an excellent point here. I've only sparred so far, I have no record book of competitions yet. I've read words from seasoned boxers that actual *competitions* are another mental ball game than just sparring at the gym.

So, I don't discount your point.

Ive seen too many times people that look shit hot in the gym, are as fit as a fiddle and can spar with anyone, stick them in the ring and suddenly it all goes to rat shit and everyone from the gym is left wondering what happened.
Based on seeing this happen a few too many times i wont ever assume anyone can fight unless its proven regardless of their abilities outside of the ring.
This is why im not impressed with any of the demonstration videos and so on in relation to real fighting ability. Its too far a leap to make. We can make guesses and so on but thats all they are.
I dont make any excepetions for bruce lee because of his name as i wouldnt for mike tyson if i saw him train but hed never fought. id still say we dont know. I dont have some special criterial when it comes to bruce lees ability, its the same for everyone, unproven is unproven. If people say i think he would be good or i bet hed be good then fine. to state it as fact is not.
I should probably just ignore these threads.

I think though... one has to be careful not to carry the issue of ring experience to far. I say this because I have sparred with a pro boxer and have sparred against seasoned amature fighters, and they are not always "astonishing."

Granted, in at least two of the cases the guys were going easy on me, but you can still pick up a quality to the persons own fighting style and boxing talents. In fact, it was one of the amature fighters that hit me repeatedly the hardest (he outweighed me a lot too). That same amature fighter even wore out the other pro fighter I sparred against.

One thing I've learned from boxing is that boxers are never in the mind mode of protecting their knees or legs from kicks (it's not part of the sport). Their minds actually become conditioned to only thinking of punches being thrown at them - they would be flabergasted if a Thai fighter began throwing powerful kicks to their thighs or calves.

[Ghost]

Your point has merit. Nonetheless, to a *lesser* extent boxing coaches do similar all the time. They note who they believe has talent or good style regardless of the persons lack of ring experience. (consequently they try to mold these type of people)

yeah i guess its cos my background/mainstay is boxing/muay thai, so its influenced how i look at things.

[Knuckles&Knees]

I really dont get how this discussion is working, how can you judge the fighting ability of someone you have never seen fight and has never fought anyone worth mentioning?

Your point has merit. Nonetheless, to a *lesser* extent boxing coaches do similar all the time. They note who they believe has talent or good style regardless of the persons lack of ring experience. (consequently they try to mold these type of people)

[lucidmist]

The reason I don't think Ali would defeat Bruce Lee - in a *street fight* of no rules - is because of the *excellent* explosive power and speed of Bruce Lee's kicks not to mention the *rhthym* (sp?) Bruce Lee was able to execute his kicks from.

The kick I'm envisioning Bruce Lee utilizing is one to Ali's (or another opponents) knee. I see the same outcome with Mike Tyson or any boxer Bruce Lee would fight. Of course Tyson could knock out anyone with one of his punches be they boxer, Thai fighter, MMA or TMA. But then.... that's why you should try to avoid getting punched by Mike Tyson. LOL.

LOL. I think I would wanna avoid a punch by ANY boxer - period. :P

Hmm.. I've tried knee kicks against people before. Well, it did stop them in their path of motion, but didn't immobolize or hurt them enough to stop the fight. Maybe I wasn't doing it right cos I'm a lazy muther when it comes to practising kicks. Always had been for almost two decades, always will be (then why the hell didn't I just pick up boxing???).

[Knuckles&Knees]

Ali had 61 fights. 56W-37KO-5L

Thanks for the correction.

[Knuckles&Knees]

No doubt about it man.. I'm sure many of us have sparred or fought with boxers and the fight could've gone either way. That is why I don't automatically assume Bruce would lose to Ali.

However, there were instances, upon reflection, that I know for sure had I been a millisecond slower or made a mistake of not shifting backwards enough, I would've been dropped by the single punch.

What I'm trying to say is, although I believe Bruce stood a higher chance against Ali, I still think the fight could go either way. Ali's experienced, if Bruce slowed even a single bit or made one mistake, Ali would take it.

Hmm. What do you think of a fight between Tyson and Bruce? Or Sugar Ray?

The reason I don't think Ali would defeat Bruce Lee - in a *street fight* of no rules - is because of the *excellent* explosive power and speed of Bruce Lee's kicks not to mention the *rhthym* (sp?) Bruce Lee was able to execute his kicks from.

The kick I'm envisioning Bruce Lee utilizing is one to Ali's (or another opponents) knee. I see the same outcome with Mike Tyson or any boxer Bruce Lee would fight. Of course Tyson could knock out anyone with one of his punches be they boxer, Thai fighter, MMA or TMA. But then.... that's why you should try to avoid getting punched by Mike Tyson. LOL.

[lucidmist]

Not much at this point. Too much speculation, crossing even the boundaries of style/art.

Thanks.. what about Tyson and Sugar Ray? Actually, I really think Tyson's brutal. Then again, almost all boxers are.

Ok, I'm an old man. I mean, not like 50s or 60s, but not young. Can I keep it a secret? Age is sensitive when you're slightly graying and generally without as much hair as the rest of the population. Not to mention slower in reflexes.

Basically, we're just having a fun discussion.. and I've spoken to people who learnt from students/colleagues of Bruce's, and they know for sure that he could fight. This is what I buy - that Bruce could fight. But I have never once said he was unbeatable, or invincible.

Actually, no one is. I believe every boxer, eg. Ali or Tyson, would fight all-out with no holds barred on the street. I don't think boxers who were psychologically trained to be brutal in bringing an opponent down in the ring would have any problem poking an eye out when necessary to stay alive. And I've punched boxers in the rib and stomach, felt like ROCK. And my impression is that the upper body defense is almost impenetrable. So many times I tried to do trick shots, but hardly succeeded. VERY fast defense. They are only limited by techniques, but extremely mobile, and it really makes knowing the extra techniques not that big an advantage. I mean, in my mind, I knew an array of ways to move, to kick and strike, but what's the use when the guy's defense just doesn't get broken into? Actually, I've always felt that the simplest way to fight wasn't JKD - it was boxing.

I only believe Bruce Lee had a chance with Ali because he had good timing, speed and power. Also, accurate. But like I said, everybody makes mistakes. If Ali makes one, he'll probably suffer a small price. But if Bruce makes one, he'd be a goner. Ali definitely can take tons more punishment than Bruce. But don't forget, all it takes is one strike to the right place, to be given a window of an opportunity for follow-ups. And Bruce had the speed to execute many things that many others can't, to create openings. But yes, like many of you mentioned, there's no way to prove, no way to justify, so, let's just have fun.

Liberty, I only don't agree with you that Bruce was invincible in the street.. However, I don't think your posts were immature. For your age, you did not come in screaming "f**k you all bruce lee haters" and blah blah blah, and that's commendable.

[Liberty]

First off, I was being a smart aleck with all that "case closed" talk. And as one of you gentlemen said, the Lee thing is all hypothetical. I still believe that if those two want to pal around on the internet conjecturing, that's their perogative.

I mean, Ghost, you say you're 30. They're probably younger. Let them have their fun. Who are they hurting? Seems like you are ever waiting for one of them to come out and play so you can bully them.

You still did not answer my question about your own martial arts background. Then again, it does not matter.

One thing I will remain convinced about though - extensive experience is relative. Individual. I know a kid who used to be a friend of mine. He is now in gangs and carries a gun and has no problem using it. As I tell him, when we cross paths, his very street wisdom relative to other kids our age is "extensive."

As for what Wing Chun may or may not offer me, I want to find out for myself. You know, the "absorb what is useful" thing, and all that. surely, it can't hurt.

Anyway, my mom's about to come in my room and ring my neck,so I'll wish all of you a good night. Thanks for the input, and no offense, really.

If people say i think he would be good or i bet hed be good then fine. to state it as fact is not.
.

That is exactly my point. If people want to come on here and love up Bruce Lee all day long then great, I'd rather that than to come on and slag people off. Where I take issue, as I think you do, is when people come on here making some pretty sensationalist claims, and end their statements with words like "case closed". That will always turn me off their point of view.